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Who killed Olof Palme?

theguardian.com

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Re: Who killed Olof Palme?

#61

Post by MisterOctober »

acqq wrote: post #51
bjourne wrote: post #43

The murder of OP isn't that interesting. Everyone who is knowledgeable about the case knows it can't have been a conspiracy. It was a lone gunman, possibly a drug addict, seeing OP and his wife, seizing the opportunity to kill him. But what is interesting is the completely disastrous following investigation. The police in Stockholm fucked up in every possible way there is to fuck up. Records were not kept, witnesses…

> Everyone who is knowledgeable about the case knows it can't have been a conspiracy. It was a lone gunman Can you please elaborate? I could very well imagine a seemingly lone gunman who would indeed be a part of a conspiracy, and I have a kind of a direct experience: I was personally a victim of a robbery where only one man attacked me, in what at that moment appeared to me as a completely random attack. Only after…

Indeed -- look at the popular street "con" known as "Three-Card Monte" -- a fraudulent card game which seems to be run by a single person, but in fact also involves several [or all] people in what appears to be 'the crowd.' The victim of the con has no clue that these other folks are working with the guy manipulating the cards.

Re: Who killed Olof Palme?

#62

Post by usr1106 »

mongol wrote: post #24
usr1106 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a Swede I am sick and tired about all speculation over the years. I'm not a Swede, but I happened to be in Sweden as a trainee in Sweden just a year after it happened. For a couple of years I read every article I saw. But now that so much time has gone, I don't read any article any more. Not even this one, I was just curious what people comment. It is not unlikely that the murderer has died in the meantime. The…

You are right. It is actually more likely the murderer is dead than not. This is a simple observation because lots of people associated with the investigation are dead too. Simply beacause time has passed. Christer Pettersson is dead. Hans Holmér is dead. Lisbeth Palme is dead. 33-åringen is dead. Claes Zeime is dead. Axel Morath is dead. Lars Tingström is dead. Skandiamannen is dead. Ebbe Carlsson is dead. And so on…

Oh, I had already completely forgotten about Ebbe Carlsson. The Swedish Wikipedia article was I nice refresh of my memory and now I understand again why I had read every article back in the days. Better than any fiction... (The English Wikipedia does not mention anythig of the dozens of scandals and weird affairs he was involved in.)

Re: Who killed Olof Palme?

#63

Post by acqq »

_0w8t wrote: post #53
acqq wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone who is knowledgeable about the case knows it can't have been a conspiracy. It was a lone gunman Can you please elaborate? I could very well imagine a seemingly lone gunman who would indeed be a part of a conspiracy, and I have a kind of a direct experience: I was personally a victim of a robbery where only one man attacked me, in what at that moment appeared to me as a completely random attack. Only after…

I was told about similar experience in Moscow. To still a small bag from a man at least three thieves were involved. One distracted, one “accidentally” pushed, one picked up the dropped bag.

Some real life details from the U.S:

"Street pickpockets generally work in teams, known as whiz mobs or wire mobs. The “steer” chooses the victim, who is referred to generically as the “mark,” the “vic,” or the “chump,” but can also be categorized into various subspecies, among them “Mr. Bates” (businessman) and “pappy” (senior citizen). The “stall,” or “stick,” maneuvers the mark into position and holds him there, distracting his attention, perhaps by stumbling in his path, asking him for directions, or spilling something on him. The “shade” blocks the mark’s view of what’s about to happen, either with his body or with an object such as a newspaper. And the “tool” (also known as the “wire,” the “dip,” or the “mechanic”) lifts his wallet and hands it off to the “duke man,” who hustles away, leaving the rest of the mob clean."

If I counted correctly, the described team has five members. For that kind of action it could be an optimum, otherwise it wouldn't be a typical example.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/01/07/a-pickpockets-...

In the article there's a reference to "a paperback, published in 1964, called “Whiz Mob: A Correlation of the Technical Argot of Pickpockets with Their Behavior Patterns,” by David W. Maurer, a professor of English who devoted his life to the study of raffish subcultures, before apparently killing himself, in 1981."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_W._Maurer

"David Warren Maurer (April 12, 1906 – June 11, 1981) was a professor of linguistics at the University of Louisville from 1937 to 1972, and an author of numerous studies of the language of the American underworld."

Thanks to the modern technology if you're interested in that topic you can find today various CCTV footage of such acts on the YouTube. What's fascinating is how everything happens so "easily" in the real life that even when you try to watch carefully you'd initially miss all the actors until the video points to them or until you replay the video. It's almost like a famous gorilla in the basketball game, but happening continuously on the streets and in the shops.

Re: Who killed Olof Palme?

#64

Post by bjourne »

acqq wrote: post #51
bjourne wrote: post #43

The murder of OP isn't that interesting. Everyone who is knowledgeable about the case knows it can't have been a conspiracy. It was a lone gunman, possibly a drug addict, seeing OP and his wife, seizing the opportunity to kill him. But what is interesting is the completely disastrous following investigation. The police in Stockholm fucked up in every possible way there is to fuck up. Records were not kept, witnesses…

> Everyone who is knowledgeable about the case knows it can't have been a conspiracy. It was a lone gunman Can you please elaborate? I could very well imagine a seemingly lone gunman who would indeed be a part of a conspiracy, and I have a kind of a direct experience: I was personally a victim of a robbery where only one man attacked me, in what at that moment appeared to me as a completely random attack. Only after…

> Can you please elaborate? I could very well imagine a seemingly lone gunman who would indeed be a part of a conspiracy, and I have a kind of a direct experience:

So much has been written about the murder so I can't really add much of value. Here are a few facts that makes it obvious that murderer wasn't a professional - hence no conspiracy:

1. The murderer tried to shot Palme's wife from a distance of about 2 meters but missed. 2. The murder weapon was a loud and heavy revolver. Real assassins use (silenced) pistols. 3. The murderer kept the gun rather than disposing it which professional assassins do. 4. The deed took place in one of Stockholm's busiest corners on a Friday after salary (lot's of drunk people out). 5. No good escape routes. I walk past the corner many times per week. All the streets are wide and you have to run for about 100m to the closest hiding spot (a small cemetary). 6. OP was often without bodyguards. There would have been way better opportunities to assassinate him.

Roughly, this was the conclusion of the experts from the FBI, who steered the Swedish police away from the political conspiracy theory to the "lone gunman" one. People still cling on to the conspiracy theory though. I think it is easier for them to digest because then there was some "meaning" to the murder, rather than a drug addicted street-thug doing it for no reason.

Fun (sad) fact; in the 90's you could often see the main suspect of the murder Christer Petterson (subsequently released) sitting intoxicated on the subway or commuter rail. People of course avoided him.

Re: Who killed Olof Palme?

#65

Post by acqq »

bjourne wrote: post #64
acqq wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone who is knowledgeable about the case knows it can't have been a conspiracy. It was a lone gunman Can you please elaborate? I could very well imagine a seemingly lone gunman who would indeed be a part of a conspiracy, and I have a kind of a direct experience: I was personally a victim of a robbery where only one man attacked me, in what at that moment appeared to me as a completely random attack. Only after…

> Can you please elaborate? I could very well imagine a seemingly lone gunman who would indeed be a part of a conspiracy, and I have a kind of a direct experience: So much has been written about the murder so I can't really add much of value. Here are a few facts that makes it obvious that murderer wasn't a professional - hence no conspiracy: 1. The murderer tried to shot Palme's wife from a distance of about 2 meter…

> a drug addicted street-thug doing it for no reason

It still sounds much less probable than anybody who would do it with an agenda.

> the streets are wide and you have to run for about 100m to the closest hiding spot

Can you post a link to the location? Not being from there and reading about these details for the first time, it's hard for me to imagine "one of Stockholm's busiest corners" but with no place to hide for 100m? No buildings? No entrances to the buildings? No entrances to the combinations of the buildings where you enter in one block of houses but can magically appear wherever across, already dressed in new clothes? That's all very doable in the busy cities I know, especially if somebody already planned and verified one or two escape routes.

Additionally, there could be a logic behind using an old gun: an origin of an old gun could be harder to trace, it could have been never recorded or marked.

Re: Who killed Olof Palme?

#66

Post by msla »

olivermarks wrote: post #19
IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What does 'wanting a conspiracy' mean? It means that people become so obsessed with "critical thinking" that they will never be satisfied. Every group telling them to let it go becomes just another brick in the wall of conspiracies surrounding them. Every shred of evidence just invites more questions about who faked it and why. It's interesting to speculate on the motives, although somewhat mood. Some people proba…

By 'problem' do you mean people not accepting the official narrative and having a go at 'critical thinking'? I wouldn't see that as a problem, I'd see that as a free society

> By 'problem' do you mean people not accepting the official narrative and having a go at 'critical thinking'? I wouldn't see that as a problem, I'd see that as a free society

The problem is that their version of "critical thinking" leads them down extremists rabbit holes like the ones which begin with listening to Alex Jones and ending with them trying to kill people at a pizza place because of purely imaginary Satanic pedophiles.

Re: Who killed Olof Palme?

#67

Post by mortb »

mongol wrote: post #36

Something about Olof Palme himself. I don't think there has been any other politician in Sweden that have split the opinions in society like him. The left loved him. The right did not. I don't want to reach out for the word hate, because it is so often used today. He was certainly hated among some, yes. But more than that, he was despised probably by the majority among the minority that did not vote left. He left no…

I remember. I was in my early teens when he was murdered. I did not like his speaking style. It felt too elitist; distanciated / detached.

Re: Who killed Olof Palme?

#68

Post by mongol »

6006135 wrote: post #60
bjourne wrote: post #43

The murder of OP isn't that interesting. Everyone who is knowledgeable about the case knows it can't have been a conspiracy. It was a lone gunman, possibly a drug addict, seeing OP and his wife, seizing the opportunity to kill him. But what is interesting is the completely disastrous following investigation. The police in Stockholm fucked up in every possible way there is to fuck up. Records were not kept, witnesses…

It seems like a lot of the comments are here from Swedes, and probably that is the working definition here for what consists the common perception. Is there a simple argument why it was not South African special police? I understand that the Swedish police decided it implausible, but did they explain why? I think the amount of paranoia and turbulance in SA during the 1980's and the other operations of the special arm…

Why it was not South African special police? Usually you start from evidence that points to a suspect. I am not aware of any.

Re: Who killed Olof Palme?

#69

Post by jeezie »

mortb wrote: post #38

One of the theories about who shot him (there are many https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Olof_Palme ) points to South Africa. There is also a theory that South Africans killed Dag Hammarskjöld, the Swedish UN leader https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/20/south-africa-w...

This is probably the best bet. It follows that they had an axe to grind, a message to send, and something to lose if they ignored their situation and did nothing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAIMR

Sounds like nasty business with some truly ruthless characters, seriously motivated to interfere in the politics of other countries.

Re: Who killed Olof Palme?

#70

Post by dmix »

Sharlin wrote: post #41
IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always enjoy these articles (to the extend that one can take joy in them), because they rarely fail to highlight how different politics can be. For an American audience, it's unthinkable that a leader of a government would go anywhere without their own private army. When I used to work in central Berlin, I regularly saw members of parliament and ministers have coffee or just walk around completely unprotected. Even…

> Of course, the story itself kinda speaks against this view of the world. Yet these crimes are so rare as to be huge deals when they do occur, and politicians here generally rather take their chances than lead a life protected from their very constituents. In a high-trust society it is also expected from politicians.

It's much easier to have trust in a small unimposing culturally homogeneous country of 10 million like Sweden vs a 300+ million economic and geopolitical juggernaut.
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