Coca-Cola most common source of packaging pollution on UK beaches: study • Hacker News Board

Re: Coca-Cola most common source of packaging pollution on UK beaches: study

#171

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, May 17, 2019, 9:16 AM UTC

titzer wrote: post #164

RobertRoberts wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of places in the world where littering is not socially acceptable and happens less than other places. What is the difference between these places? I think it's the people, not the material their garbage is made of.

> where littering is not socially acceptable and happens less than other places. It's great that there are places where littering is much less due to social norms. But it's not zero. People litter. Period. To a first approximation, humans can be modeled as points wandering around on a map, and at each timestep there is some nonzero probability they will just drop garbage on the ground. This is true the world over, in…

> But people are trash monkeys, and whereever they go, they fucking litter. It's as inescapable as nuclear decay. It's just a function of probability.

When you talk about large populations, a lot of things normally considered individual responsibility suddenly become a function of probability. That's why I believe in many cases we should shift responsibility from individuals to organizations at the other end of a transaction.

E.g. if you know that roughly 5% of casino gamblers end up addicted and in life-ruining debt, and 0.1% of gamblers end up dying or killing people because of that, you can't open a new casino and shield yourself behind "it's the people who can't control themselves". You knew the probabilistic model, you used it to profit, you're responsible for some deaths and for ruining people's lives.

That's IMO doubly important if the probabilistic models has incentive knobs that you control.

Re: Coca-Cola most common source of packaging pollution on UK beaches: study

#172

Post by haylel » Fri, May 17, 2019, 9:19 AM UTC

DrOctagon wrote: post #54

Why can't we just go to 100% aluminium for beverage packaging? The technology and supply chains etc. are already in place.

I think the aluminium cans have a thin plastic or polymer coating on the inside too, which stops the drink from tasting like metal... so not sure if it's 100% plastic free either.

Re: Coca-Cola most common source of packaging pollution on UK beaches: study

#173

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, May 17, 2019, 9:22 AM UTC

easytiger wrote: post #168

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh come on. It's abundantly clear that placing blame and expectation entirely on the shoulders of consumers is bollocks. Humans drop litter - just look at any festival, concert, or sports match. When it was your granddad it was mostly paper bags, maybe wrapped in newspaper, maybe a few crown corks. The glass got carefully taken home as there was a hefty deposit on those beer bottles! Now it's knee-deep single use eve…

> It's abundantly clear that placing blame and expectation entirely on the shoulders of consumers is bollocks. Humans drop litter That statement is false. Not all humans drop litter. In the west it is widely taught as wrong, often punishable by fines. Find me the person who states they should have a right to litter please. Not to mention the fact that biogradable packagi\ ng does little to nothing by way of helping l…

Even in the most well-behaved country, everyone will drop some litter at some point - even if through hurry or accident. When you multiply "once every thousand opportunities" by city's population density, you still get a lot of litter. Add to that people who're drunk and people who simply don't give a fuck, add random spillage (e.g. wind knocking trashcans over or pulling trash out of them), and you get a visible fraction of litter simply, probabilistically caused by just so much trash being produced.

Re: Coca-Cola most common source of packaging pollution on UK beaches: study

#174

Post by CydeWeys » Fri, May 17, 2019, 9:24 AM UTC

easytiger wrote: post #168

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh come on. It's abundantly clear that placing blame and expectation entirely on the shoulders of consumers is bollocks. Humans drop litter - just look at any festival, concert, or sports match. When it was your granddad it was mostly paper bags, maybe wrapped in newspaper, maybe a few crown corks. The glass got carefully taken home as there was a hefty deposit on those beer bottles! Now it's knee-deep single use eve…

> It's abundantly clear that placing blame and expectation entirely on the shoulders of consumers is bollocks. Humans drop litter That statement is false. Not all humans drop litter. In the west it is widely taught as wrong, often punishable by fines. Find me the person who states they should have a right to litter please. Not to mention the fact that biogradable packagi\ ng does little to nothing by way of helping l…

Defense in depth is a useful concept for a lot more than just security.

Yes, of course people shouldn't litter. But some will anyway, and even in the unlikely event that no one on Earth litters ever again, plenty of trash will still escape from trash cans, trash trucks, etc., especially on windy days.

So the answer is we need defense in depth against litter. Littering should of course be curtailed to the maximum extent possible, but the litter itself should not last indefinitely upon escaping into the environment. It should degrade in a reasonable amount of time, or at least be totally inert and non-disruptive to animals and the environment (which plastic is not).

So you're both right. All available measures should be taken, so that combined, the optimal result is achieved.

Re: Coca-Cola most common source of packaging pollution on UK beaches: study

#175

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, May 17, 2019, 9:28 AM UTC

liamkinne wrote: post #22

AYBABTME wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you develop an app, and everybody using your app always ends up deleting their data by clicking on the wrong button, and then people complain that your app loses data... ...in the end, the users are wrong in the moment, but the real problem is that your app allows a behavior that has negative outcomes, and the proper fix isn't to educate people, but to make it impossible for people to click that delete button so e…

Your design example doesn't apply because the end user in this case isn't directly effected by their negligence. There is clear evidence that littering is societal. See how clean Japanese cities are despite almost everything being wrapped in plastic.

How much street cleaning staff do Japanese employ?

Anyway, the example still works. Even if littering was purely societal, on the timescale of years society is fixed. It doesn't change. You can't suddenly convince people to pretty please change social norms. Your options are either a) get a law in place that directly addresses undesired behavior, which is not free and works only to the degree you'll enforce it, or b) stop playing off the obvious failure mode of your society for your personal gains.

Re: Coca-Cola most common source of packaging pollution on UK beaches: study

#176

Post by CydeWeys » Fri, May 17, 2019, 9:28 AM UTC

jaredklewis wrote: post #141

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there's Singapore and...? That's about it. Of course as well as extreme and draconian legislation, like banning gum, they're a tiny city-state. Yet Singapore employs vast numbers of cleaners and street sweepers clearing up - which surely shouldn't be necessary? Far more per-capita than any Western city. So even they seem to recognise it will happen anyway.

Add Japan to the list. Littering is extremely rare. When traveling, I've been impressed by the cleanliness of Zurich, Copenhagen, Helsinki, and several cities in Germany. If as a society we can't do something as simple as not throw garbage on the ground, I think we have a very bleak future.

I'm just leaving Japan after spending a week touring around the country, and I definitely did see litter. Not as much on the streets as in the US, but still some, and the beach was absolutely jam-packed with litter that had washed ashore.

Litter is inevitable. A lot or the time it isn't even conscious. You can just forget that you had set a bottle down next to you, and happen not to look back when you're leaving. Or it can fall out of your pocket or backpack unnoticed when you're retrieving something else. Or the wind can just blow it out of a trash can or vehicle.

Re: Coca-Cola most common source of packaging pollution on UK beaches: study

#177

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, May 17, 2019, 9:29 AM UTC

new299 wrote: post #123

jdietrich wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You won't even see many cigarette butts in Japan, because smokers carry a pocket ashtray.

Smoking culture in Japan appears to discourage smoking outside. In many places smoking outside is illegal. However some trains, many shopping centers and most restaurants have designated smoking areas. As such you’re somewhat less likely to see cigarette butts on the street in Japan in any case.

Yup. Also, when smoking outside, people do have a strong incentive to dump the butt ASAP, whether there's a trash can in sight or not - cigarette butts are dirty, smell really bad (even for smokers' standards), and can foil clothing.

Re: Coca-Cola most common source of packaging pollution on UK beaches: study

#178

Post by CydeWeys » Fri, May 17, 2019, 9:31 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #175

liamkinne wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your design example doesn't apply because the end user in this case isn't directly effected by their negligence. There is clear evidence that littering is societal. See how clean Japanese cities are despite almost everything being wrapped in plastic.

How much street cleaning staff do Japanese employ? Anyway, the example still works. Even if littering was purely societal, on the timescale of years society is fixed . It doesn't change. You can't suddenly convince people to pretty please change social norms. Your options are either a) get a law in place that directly addresses undesired behavior, which is not free and works only to the degree you'll enforce it, or b…

I'm leaving Japan right now after having spent a week here and I definitely saw a noticeable number of people cleaning up litter.

The best was an old man pulling a map out of the mouth of a Nara deer that was eating it, then scolding the deer like it was a dog. So yeah, even the deer are taking care of litter, even if they shouldn't be. I also saw a bunch of them eating the paper ribbons that the deer crackers come packaged in.

Re: Coca-Cola most common source of packaging pollution on UK beaches: study

#179

Post by Liquid_Fire » Fri, May 17, 2019, 9:31 AM UTC

lostlogin wrote: post #138

RobertRoberts wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of places in the world where littering is not socially acceptable and happens less than other places. What is the difference between these places? I think it's the people, not the material their garbage is made of.

That stuff matters, but of far greater importance is the volume of plastic made. We make too much. It’s not particularly hard to reduce your usage a lot, but I think that’s coming at it from the wrong end. The manufacturers need to be incentivised to do better. Carrot and stick, with the stick getting bigger over time.

In Japan everything is overpackaged using ridiculous amounts of plastic (more so than in Europe, for example), and yet people don't litter.

I think it's important to tackle the issue from both ends.

Re: Coca-Cola most common source of packaging pollution on UK beaches: study

#180

Post by makomk » Fri, May 17, 2019, 9:33 AM UTC

PorterDuff wrote: post #44

That's an interesting article. I remember that years ago a project at the University of Arizona was doing archaeological work on landfills. It turned out that surprising amount of the non-degrading material found once you dug down a bit was telephone books.

Well, that's certainly one method of carbon sequestration...