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Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

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Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#101

Post by AsyncAwait »

barry-cotter wrote: post #61
coldtea wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As Milton Friedman has pointed out, the loser of protectionist policies are the countries that practice them. Milton Friedman says that because he's a policy advisor of countries that benefit from others dropping their protectionist policies. At a certain state of development (and when you are not yet top dog to dictate what "free" trade means to other countries), you need some well balanced protectionist policies.…

> Milton Friedman says that because he's a policy advisor of countries that benefit from others dropping their protectionist policies. Friedman has been called many things but inconsistent or unprincipled were not among them. He advocated for free trade for the same reasons free trade is the overwhelming consensus of economists; it works and they can explain why whether you want the verbal or mathematical explanation…

> Friedman has been called many things but inconsistent or unprincipled we’re not among them.

Yes they were, for example Friedman said that free market policies enable 'freedom' and socialist ones do lend themselves to authoritarianism, while conveniently ignoring the fact that in almost all places where his vision was put as fully into motion as possible, (70/80s Latin America), it had to be accompanied by severe state oppression. His policies could not be enacted via truly democratic means and in that sense they were no different than the 'socialist' ones he was so critical of.

He even admitted this later, essentially saying that you need a huge crisis of some sort, so that an economic 'shock therapy' could be enacted in order to bring about his vision of free markets.

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#102

Post by AsyncAwait »

tomp wrote: post #100
thefounder wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US seems to promote free trade for the industries it controls. When it looses to competition it invokes national security, military intervention etc...Trump made clear what was already known. I am a free trade believer but you must be stupid not to see that US doesn't want free trade. It wants free trade where it works for them, their "free trade", in US dollars of course. If you compete with the US you become a foe,…

It's more like, if you don't have steel/oil/planes/guns/CPUs you don't have an army (or more specifically, producers of the above can deny you resources when you need them most, in war).

As an example, this is why Russia has rushed to finish GLONASS, (GPS was disrupted for them in 2008) & why China and the EU are working towards the same goal.

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#103

Post by NotPaidToPost »

barry-cotter wrote: post #71
chvid wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it scary that you get downvoted for saying something you can find in an economics textbook.

Read a macroeconomics textbook written more recently than the 1970’s and it will call the infant industry argument theoretically plausible and reference Krugman’s paper on industry clusters. It will spend far more time on the globally optimal and not strategically effected strategy, free trade. We know protectionism can theoretically work. It can also be a massive failure, like in all of post-colonial South Asia and…

The point is that a fully open economy is not necessarily the optimal strategy for a developing country.

Of course this is just one aspect of development and there is no silver bullet. Those who succeeded used protectionism and controlled opening of their economy as part of a broader strategy, governance, and culture.

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#105

Post by cc81 »

wallace_f wrote: post #41
coldtea wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They undermine it every day they refuse to allow free trade. The US and others spent a lot of resources building the free trade system of the world... I.e. the kind of trade that they dictate and call "free", creating banana republics that cut them special deals, toppling governments when they don't like their decisions, using humanitarian and development funding (even from supposedly independent sources, like the…

The US does this, but I'm glad it's a country where we value being able to openly criticize our government for it. We have an independent judiciary, democratic institutions--what are structural Separations of Powers which is the most important structure of a civilization consistent with liberty. China doesn't have that. Saying the US also cheats the rules, too, is important, but shouldn't be confused with the reality…

What does that have to do with free trade and the actions around it?

I mean a Chinese person can say that they are glad to live in a country that does not invade other countries, killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#106

Post by boomboomsubban »

sgift wrote: post #79
ionised wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US does this, but I'm glad it's a country where we value being able to openly criticize our government for it. Around half of your population don't seem to want that at all as long as 'their guy' is in power.

The US has many problems, but there's a big difference between people being unhappy with you and being send into "reeducation camps" if the government doesn't like what you say.

There's also a major difference between being sent to reeducation camps and being killed by a drone strike. The US may tolerate dissent inside their borders better, but far worse overall.

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#107

Post by codedokode »

chewz wrote: post #20
NotPaidToPost wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

East Asia is vassal to the US at the moment... I think countries like Singapore, Korea, etc do not want the US, Korea, to leave. They are between a rock and a hard place and want to balance the US and China in order not to become too dependent on one and to benefit from both. Singapore, which is quite "China-friendly" is saying exactly that. What I find interesting is that the West in general, and obviously the US in…

> East Asia is vassal to the US at the moment... Even if it were true I am not sure if people of Singapore, Korea, Japan, Thailand or Taiwan would like to swap places with people of Xinjang or Tibet..

They don't want to change places with people of Iraq or Syria either.

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#108

Post by codedokode »

rgbrenner wrote: post #5

China is highly unlikely to undermine the U.S.-led global system given it has been one of its biggest beneficiaries, Balakrishnan said. They undermine it every day they refuse to allow free trade. The US and others spent a lot of resources building the free trade system of the world... and China wants the benefits of selling into that global market, while reserving their own market for themselves. Every day they are…

> The US and others spent a lot of resources building the free trade system of the world.

Are the sanctions against countries like Cuba, Iran or North Korea also a part of "fair" and "free" trade?

Of course, US is free to choose with whom they want or don't want to deal; just don't call it "free" trade please.

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#109

Post by jacques_chester »

87txH5G4 wrote: post #73
chewz wrote: post #3

> we also want China to be able to assume its rightful place as it develops and becomes a superpower in its own right, Singapore economy is depending on trade and prolonged trade war will ruin Singapore with its unsustainable debt. But how does China 'assuming its rightful place' should look in practical terms? Withdrawing US fleets from Pacific? Allowing East Asia to become China's vasal teritory? Tolerating growing…

FYI, the Singapore public debt is objectively not unsustainable. On the surface, Singapore's public debt-to-GDP ratio is at around 110%, which is slightly higher than the US. Over the course of Singapore's history, each term of the government operated on a balanced budget (i.e., revenue >= expenditure). The government bonds are issue to "develop the domestic debt market". In fact, the government is legally not allowe…

Running short and long term debt balances to create financial market liquidity isn't uncommon. When Australia reached zero long-term debt in the early 2000s, the government continued raising and retiring hundreds of billions of dollars of debt on a regular cadence to provide AUD liquidity in the debt markets.

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#110

Post by codedokode »

wallace_f wrote: post #41
coldtea wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They undermine it every day they refuse to allow free trade. The US and others spent a lot of resources building the free trade system of the world... I.e. the kind of trade that they dictate and call "free", creating banana republics that cut them special deals, toppling governments when they don't like their decisions, using humanitarian and development funding (even from supposedly independent sources, like the…

The US does this, but I'm glad it's a country where we value being able to openly criticize our government for it. We have an independent judiciary, democratic institutions--what are structural Separations of Powers which is the most important structure of a civilization consistent with liberty. China doesn't have that. Saying the US also cheats the rules, too, is important, but shouldn't be confused with the reality…

While separation of powers is a great thing for protection of human rights, it doesn't change anything for international treaties. No matter whether country is democratic or not, they will try to push terms that are beneficial to them rather than to other countries.
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