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Americans can opt out of airport facial recognition

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Re: Americans can opt out of airport facial recognition

#51

Post by JohnFen »

chrisseaton wrote: post #13
existencebox wrote: post #7

Am I the only one spooked by the fact that to opt out, you now need to have your passport with you? (and for _domestic travel_ no less) Given that the facial databases contain your data regardless, and the amount of in-airport surveillance (in that you're not gonna avoid being observed and logged), It's more of a, "we're gonna make you present your papers regardless, pick your poison"

Isn’t a passport just a basic photo ID? Seems reasonable to ask for on to check people are who they say they are. Everyone already has a passport.

> Everyone already has a passport.

Most US citizens do not have a passport. Passports are a real pain to get, so people tend not to bother unless they're planning a specific out-of-country trip.

Re: Americans can opt out of airport facial recognition

#52

Post by wool_gather »

afpx wrote: post #28
turk73 wrote: post #23

The pieces of the puzzle that all go together: REAL ID, federalizes drivers licenses for creating a database of photos for facial recognition and metadata. Enhanced Passport--the requirements for getting the photo include not wearing glasses and not smiling, ostensibly so that their algorithm works better. Facial scanning at airports, so they can build up as big a database as possible. I'm surprised they didn't requi…

That seems like hyperbole to me. Remember, we live in a republican democracy. Yes, it works slowly (by design). But, it works. At least we don’t have a totalitarian state to deal with. I used to be skeptical of this stuff, too. Then, we had 18 years of no major terrorist attacks.

> Then, we had 18 years of no major terrorist attacks.

Is this directly because of DHS, et al.?

Re: Americans can opt out of airport facial recognition

#53

Post by sneak »

afpx wrote: post #28
turk73 wrote: post #23

The pieces of the puzzle that all go together: REAL ID, federalizes drivers licenses for creating a database of photos for facial recognition and metadata. Enhanced Passport--the requirements for getting the photo include not wearing glasses and not smiling, ostensibly so that their algorithm works better. Facial scanning at airports, so they can build up as big a database as possible. I'm surprised they didn't requi…

That seems like hyperbole to me. Remember, we live in a republican democracy. Yes, it works slowly (by design). But, it works. At least we don’t have a totalitarian state to deal with. I used to be skeptical of this stuff, too. Then, we had 18 years of no major terrorist attacks.

How do we not have a totalitarian state?

You can't publish evidence of state war crimes without the CIA doing a character assassination job on you (pending a real assassination).

You can't travel anonymously.

You can't publish anonymously.

You can't make bank transfers out of the country for arbitrary purposes.

You can't deposit or withdraw cash above a trivial amount without significant scrutiny which is reported to the government. Financial companies failing to report can be criminally liable; it is illegal for them to protect your privacy.

It's illegal to not let the state know where you habitually sleep (state ID/driver's license requirements).

You can't drive from place to place without being subject to arbitrary "I smelled marijuana" search.

Every single phone call, SMS, and email is logged by the government.

Every single train and airplane ride is logged by the government in realtime, and government ID is required to board planes (and some trains).

Every single payment card swipe is logged by the government in realtime, and has been since 2008.

The government can, at any time, with zero burden of proof, freeze any/all of your payment cards and deposit accounts.

The government can, at any time, with zero burden of proof, freeze your ability to send/receive electronic payments.

You can't make private transactions (e.g. at a casino) over a trivial amount in cash without having to submit identity documents.

Our government runs a global network of extrajudicial torture prisons.

Our government regularly uses illegal and inhumane conditions against children to dissuade people from seeking human rights (specifically to asylum).

Our government runs an extrajudicial network of assassination robots that target citizens and foreigners alike, with basically zero oversight about who they kill or why.

Our government has been known to retaliate with bogus charges against anyone who stands publicly against their illegal activities, e.g. Joseph Nacchio.

I'm really confused as to what would have to happen for you to think that we do live in a totalitarian state.

Re: Americans can opt out of airport facial recognition

#54

Post by pavel_lishin »

afpx wrote: post #28
turk73 wrote: post #23

The pieces of the puzzle that all go together: REAL ID, federalizes drivers licenses for creating a database of photos for facial recognition and metadata. Enhanced Passport--the requirements for getting the photo include not wearing glasses and not smiling, ostensibly so that their algorithm works better. Facial scanning at airports, so they can build up as big a database as possible. I'm surprised they didn't requi…

That seems like hyperbole to me. Remember, we live in a republican democracy. Yes, it works slowly (by design). But, it works. At least we don’t have a totalitarian state to deal with. I used to be skeptical of this stuff, too. Then, we had 18 years of no major terrorist attacks.

> I used to be skeptical of this stuff, too. Then, we had 18 years of no major terrorist attacks.

We had 17 years of no major terrorist attacks that involved airplanes prior to 9/11; if you count the foiled plot, you could bump it down to six: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_airliner_bombing_a...

And we've had plenty of terrorist attacks since 9/11, we just don't call them that - we call them "lone wolves":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston_church_shooting

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Paul_Hasson

Re: Americans can opt out of airport facial recognition

#55

Post by afpx »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #54
afpx wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems like hyperbole to me. Remember, we live in a republican democracy. Yes, it works slowly (by design). But, it works. At least we don’t have a totalitarian state to deal with. I used to be skeptical of this stuff, too. Then, we had 18 years of no major terrorist attacks.

> I used to be skeptical of this stuff, too. Then, we had 18 years of no major terrorist attacks. We had 17 years of no major terrorist attacks that involved airplanes prior to 9/11; if you count the foiled plot, you could bump it down to six: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_airliner_bombing_a... And we've had plenty of terrorist attacks since 9/11, we just don't call them that - we call them "lone wolves":…

None of those meet the “Major” criteria.

Re: Americans can opt out of airport facial recognition

#56

Post by dsfyu404ed »

afpx wrote: post #46
knz wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think OP's point is that many of the tools necessary for a totalitarian state are in place. The Stasi and NKVD would have loved tools like this. America once aspired to something other than "papers please".

Luckily, everyone wants their personal freedoms and few people want to take others’ freedoms away [1]. So, it comes down to our personal duty (or will) to oversee our government. Unfortunately, that’s hard to do electronically. I hope my down-voters are very active in organizations that scrutinize our government. Otherwise, I see some hypocrisy. [1] Sure, there are plenty of bad actors online. But, in a country of se…

>and few people want to take other peoples’ freedoms away

Really? Even on HN there's certain freedoms that the majority wants curtailed. Reddit is a complete cesspool of pro-totalitarianism. Twitter is, well, Twitter.

Re: Americans can opt out of airport facial recognition

#57

Post by JohnFen »

chrisseaton wrote: post #38
fromthestart wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Everyone already has a passport. I'm pretty sure most native born citizens don't get passports unless and until they make plans to travel internationally.

Isn’t that risky - what if you suddenly have to travel with business and there’s a delay getting a passport?

The vast majority of the population will never have that situation arise. It seems reasonable that if your job comes with such a risk, you should have a passport -- but you're still talking about a minority of the citizenry.

Re: Americans can opt out of airport facial recognition

#58

Post by s4vi0r »

turk73 wrote: post #23

The pieces of the puzzle that all go together: REAL ID, federalizes drivers licenses for creating a database of photos for facial recognition and metadata. Enhanced Passport--the requirements for getting the photo include not wearing glasses and not smiling, ostensibly so that their algorithm works better. Facial scanning at airports, so they can build up as big a database as possible. I'm surprised they didn't requi…

It's been incredibly in your face if you aren't a privileged white person since basically the dawn of the country, with a small period of kind-of-not-really-thoufh improvement around WWII. Workers rights have always been shat on, being poor sucks and keeps getting worse with every year that m4a isn't a thing, and being a visible minority obviously also sucks what with the whole police murdering you thing or ICE gestapo knocking on your door etc.

Frankly I hope they ramp it up, because maybe it'll at least open up peoples eyes to all the other insane sorts of injustices that go on.

Re: Americans can opt out of airport facial recognition

#59

Post by orblivion »

mieseratte wrote: post #6
koolba wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure that most of us that will opt-out of this type of thing are already on that particular list.

I opt for a pat-down every time. I doubt this will put me on any worse of a list. Thanks for sharing OP!

I stopped opting out because I didn't see the point to continue. The opt-out moment is over. One could argue it contributed to getting rid of the more dangerous backscatter devices, but the millimeter waves remain. If it comes back for another reason I will rejoin for the duration. But I personally am not so shy that I care about a body scan. It seemed upon reflection that it was just vanity or resentment on my point to continue, and I was just inconveniencing myself.

If you have a counter-argument I'm all ears, but I just don't see the point for myself, here and now, to opt-out.

Re: Americans can opt out of airport facial recognition

#60

Post by tedivm »

holy_city wrote: post #40
turk73 wrote: post #23

The pieces of the puzzle that all go together: REAL ID, federalizes drivers licenses for creating a database of photos for facial recognition and metadata. Enhanced Passport--the requirements for getting the photo include not wearing glasses and not smiling, ostensibly so that their algorithm works better. Facial scanning at airports, so they can build up as big a database as possible. I'm surprised they didn't requi…

>I'm surprised they didn't require full fingerprints for REAL ID. They do in California!

California has required a thumb print for a drivers license since 1982.
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