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Books and lectures don't work

andymatuschak.org

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Re: Books and lectures don't work

#151

Post by bubblewrap »

Amezarak wrote: post #149
bubblewrap wrote: post #100

It's been years since I read Guns, Germs and Steel, but I think I remember the one or other thing. Off the top of my head: north/south axis of the Americas vs East/West of Europe/Axis - same crops can grow everywhere. No big mammals suitable for herding had survived in the Americas, sweetcorn only crop suitable for breeding for agriculture. Writing may have been discovered in some places for fun, but discarded becaus…

I haven’t read the book, but the axis argument needs a ton of support since it’s absolutely not true that the same crops were or could be cultivated at the same latitudes in Eurasia, in part because the same latitude still has a lot of different climates. For most of history, any given crop was confined to a pretty small area in Eurasia. It’s also certainly not true that there were no large mammals in the Americas su…

What mammals where there suitable for herding, and what crops?

It has been 18 years since I read the book, so perhaps you shouldn't judge it by my memories.

Also curious about your source for the crops confined to a small areas.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#152

Post by bubblewrap »

bubblewrap wrote: post #151
Amezarak wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven’t read the book, but the axis argument needs a ton of support since it’s absolutely not true that the same crops were or could be cultivated at the same latitudes in Eurasia, in part because the same latitude still has a lot of different climates. For most of history, any given crop was confined to a pretty small area in Eurasia. It’s also certainly not true that there were no large mammals in the Americas su…

What mammals where there suitable for herding, and what crops? It has been 18 years since I read the book, so perhaps you shouldn't judge it by my memories. Also curious about your source for the crops confined to a small areas.

It was "domestication", not just "suitable for herding": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns%2C_Germs%2C_and_Steel#Agr...

"Diamond identifies a mere 14 domesticated large mammal species worldwide. The five most useful (cow, horse, sheep, goat, and pig) are all descendants of species endemic to Eurasia. Of the remaining nine, only two (the llama and alpaca both of South America) are indigenous to a land outside the temperate region of Eurasia."

"Smaller domesticable animals such as dogs, cats, chickens, and guinea pigs may be valuable in various ways to an agricultural society, but will not be adequate in themselves to sustain large-scale agrarian society."

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#153

Post by asdff »

bosie wrote: post #68
chpmrc wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel like this is ultimately related to the medium or to the content as well? Intuitively new media won't have as much (good quality) content as books, so that might be the main issue here.

> Intuitively new media won't have as much (good quality) content as books care to share that intuition? this doesn't seem obvious to me unfortunately

Experts in the field might not have much time to make and promote a youtube channel, because they are busy writing these books and papers.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#154

Post by asdff »

PeterisP wrote: post #107
Jaxan wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you spend more time on it? My reading is definitely slower than youtube videos. And still a bit slower than most lectures.

Interesting, for me it's the other way around - I'd prefer to read because the videos are so slow; a transcript of a video can be read something like four-five times quicker than the video itself. Lecture videos can be listened with the audio sped up 1.5-2 times (though it really degrades the quality and can be hard to understand at times) but it's still much slower than reading the same thing, at least for me. I mea…

Even with speed reading software I struggle with comprehending whatever I just read. I need to catch myself and slow way down if I'm trying to read something dense vs. a casual novel, otherwise nothing sticks.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#155

Post by andymatuschak »

wellpast wrote: post #115
andymatuschak wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Author here) You might be amused to learn that I actually have looked into prospects for technologies around learning in one's sleep. Unfortunately, things don't look great. But you might enjoy this paper, on learning smell–sound associations during sleep: https://www.nature.com/articles/nn.3193 To your central point: you're right that effortful engagement is a hugely important ingredient for learning, so we shouldn…

Thanks for your reply. The Euclid’s Elements example seems possibly a good anchor for discussion. However I think the difficulty/effortfulness/dynamism of the learning process should signal that the communication/teaching side of the process is only going to be more effortful/dynamic/etc. In other words whether or not to present Euclid with diagrams and how and when to present them seems to be such a context-sensitiv…

Yep, I think we're aligned on all this! One lens on my aspirations is to create a "stable" of "moves" like "including figures" which can be applied contextually to better align with the way readers think and learn.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#156

Post by andymatuschak »

grblovrflowerrr wrote: post #132
kartan wrote: post #2

> How might we make books actually work reliably? The read is interesting, and it has an interesting premise. But, it is one well known. Techniques like SQ3R ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SQ3R ) have existed for decades. Books are a great source of knowledge. But, you need to use the right techniques to read them. If you read for fun, then don't bother. Whatever sticks is better than nothing. If you read to memoriz…

What if the book made SQ3R easier?

Indeed, that's a nice way to frame my thesis. Or maybe even more directly: what if books were shaped such that "reading a book" meant "doing SQ3R to a book"?

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#157

Post by mixmastamyk »

mnl wrote: post #39
mixmastamyk wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author’s premise is faulty. Most deep learning requires spaced repetition and practice. One unmotivated reading without study is not enough. That’s why we go to university instead of merely queuing up a list of books. Most people understand this I believe.

Exactly. Skimming through a book is not reading a book. Reading a book is not studying what's in a book. That's what I'd assume it's common knowledge about books. That and the usual study techniques: you read the material once, read it again and underline the key material, maybe you write down a summary with that and/or a scheme, you memorise that a few times —possibly reading it aloud— and then you write it down in…

And not just books of course. Often we notice/realize additional things when rewatching a film.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#158

Post by kpennell »

nerdponx wrote: post #4

.....huh? I admit I skimmed this article. I did so because it is long, and because the initial premise doesn't make much sense. I was looking for something specific. For some discussion of reading and notetaking strategies. Underlining, highlighting, etc. I saw none. Therefore, I can only repeat the tired old form of dismissal: "it didn't work for you because you did it wrong". You want to actually absorb and learn s…

I think he was just getting at how odd/interesting/dissapointing it is that we don't retain more of all the stuff we read (and might even be really interested in). I remember being enthralled while reading 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus...but then trying to tell others about it and realizing how little I knew... "the americas were much more populated/advanced than people think it was" "the world lost more cultures in the 17th century than all other centuries" etc. little factoids but could not really explain much else or why the book was so COOL

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#159

Post by kpennell »

rhizome wrote: post #8
taeric wrote: post #3

This feels like it is just trying to throw out the baby with the bath water. A simple rephrasing from "Why Books Don't Work" to "Ways in Which Books Falter" would go a long way to helping the argument, as it leaves the rhetorical opening for "Ways in Which Books Excel". And the ways are myriad. To name just one exciting one, I can go back to books. Over and over and over. Do I feel like a passage or a program were di…

I'm sorry the author is experiencing problems in retention, but this reads as yet another wordy exposition of idle musings on Medium (see: weekly "SQL is terrible" posts). For me the distinction is between synchronous and asynchronous learning: a 30min howto is always going to be 30min long, but a book can be scanned, and a teacher can see that a class "gets it" and they can move on (which is a hybrid, I guess).

I think he was just getting at how odd/interesting/dissapointing it is that we don't retain more of all the stuff we read (and might even be really interested in). I remember being enthralled while reading 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus...but then trying to tell others about it and realizing how little I knew... "the americas were much more populated/advanced than people think it was" "the world lost more cultures in the 17th century than all other centuries" etc. little factoids but could not really explain much else or why the book was so COOL

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#160

Post by kpennell »

wellpast wrote: post #97

This guy seems to be searching for that magic pillow that you put the book under and sleep upon and later wake up with all the information & learning you were after downloaded and integrated into your person. He says the key to getting there is better understanding our cognitive learning models. But ask anyone who has mastered 'learning' (plenty such people exist) and they won't confess to you any magic pill. Each ti…

I think he was just getting at how odd/interesting/dissapointing it is that we don't retain more of all the stuff we read (and might even be really interested in). I remember being enthralled while reading 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus...but then trying to tell others about it and realizing how little I knew... "the americas were much more populated/advanced than people think it was" "the world lost more cultures in the 17th century than all other centuries" etc. little factoids but could not really explain much else or why the book was so COOL
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