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Books and lectures don't work

andymatuschak.org

91–100 of 162 posts

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#91

The article does an effective thing by creating a strong interest in knowing how the author will justify himself for some of the claims he's made—and it doesn't disappoint: if you give it a chance, it gives answers to the controversies. This is one variation of an important pedagogical concept called 'motivation'. And, ironically, after reading the article, my main takeaway was that while I appreciate the main line o…

You’re right that I don’t treat motivation seriously enough in this piece. It’s very true that you will absorb nothing from a book which you do not read.

The framing which drove me was: isn’t it odd that even readers who are quite motivated to read a book still often absorb fairly little?

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#92

I disagree with the central conceit of this piece. >as a medium, books are surprisingly bad at conveying knowledge, and readers mostly don’t realize it. I posit it is not that books are bad at conveying knowledge, it is that people are bad at absorbing abstract knowledge they don't put to concrete use, and that people often read non-fiction books which have no practical application in their lives. A teenager in Afric…

Author here; this is a great point and I’m grateful for it. Maybe we shouldn’t expect to absorb such knowledge!

That said, if the theory is that books’ knowledge is absorbed through concrete use, why is the book so uninvolved with facilitating or interleaving with that concrete use? I’d suggest the impetus and regulation of the concrete use (and its relationship to the book) is all on the reader. Does that align with your thinking?

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#93

This is a very well thought-out analysis of the textbook and lecture modalities for learning. I don't understand the virulent negative responses from many of the comments here—perhaps it's just a reaction about the clickbaity title? Take it easy y'all. The thesis of the article is much more nuanced that the title would suggest. A more appropriate title would be "Analysis of the relative benefits of textbooks and lect…

Thank you for that kind synthesis, Ivan. Speaking of learning APIs: I'm a fan of your use of concept maps in your books!

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#94

I think you might be reading books wrong if that's what you're hoping to take out of them, that is, remember this or that specific quote out of it. For me, at least, the value of a book is changing your way of thinking, or better yet, present new questions that you did not even dare to ask. I would recommend Darwin's own Origin of Species instead of Dawkins' Selfish Gene. I've read both. They can't even begin to comp…

This Shopenhauer quote is quite apt; thank you for the thoughtful response. One wondering: to what extent is information a prerequisite for insight?

What Shopenhauer is saying is that information and the storage of it in one's brain is not the goal of the lecture per-se. It is only useful as a medium to convey something more meaningful. It is useful in clearing up one's thoughts about the world, changing attitudes, raising up questions. Once you have a new question bugging your mind, it does not really matter who or what started the avalanche but only that it's rolling.

You can look at it from the point of view of modern sports. For me, at least, sport would mean having a good time, making new friends or spending time with old ones, forgetting about one's troubles, smiling and being happy about life. But sport as we know it today seems to have devolved into keeping scores and celebrating winners. That, to my mind, is akin to a information gathering activity without understanding what the purpose of it actually is.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#95

The article does an effective thing by creating a strong interest in knowing how the author will justify himself for some of the claims he's made—and it doesn't disappoint: if you give it a chance, it gives answers to the controversies. This is one variation of an important pedagogical concept called 'motivation'. And, ironically, after reading the article, my main takeaway was that while I appreciate the main line o…

You’re right that I don’t treat motivation seriously enough in this piece. It’s very true that you will absorb nothing from a book which you do not read. The framing which drove me was: isn’t it odd that even readers who are quite motivated to read a book still often absorb fairly little?

> It’s very true that you will absorb nothing from a book which you do not read.

That's not quite what I mean by motivation. To be more specific I should say 'intrinsic motivation'. I'm assuming the book is actually read in either case, motivated or unmotivated.

Let's take the case of Selfish Gene. You can be strongly motivated to read it because it's something educated people are supposed to have read. This is not 'intrinsic motivation' and will be inadequate—and you're likely to just relay some disconnected facts or partially incoherent babble if asked to e.g. summarize it later.

However, if you were previously interested in genetics and concerned by altruistic behavior in animals as a potential weakness in the evolutionary model—then you're going to easily absorb some important principles from the book which relate to this problem: if you consider genes as what's being preserved, as opposed to organisms, then altruistic behavior makes perfect sense—especially given the way it attenuates based on proportion of shared genetic material (or perception thereof).

Being in that state of already having something that needs to be sorted out by the material you're reading is what I mean by 'intrinsic motivation'.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#96
I am working on an edtech related project for a course I am building. My questions to everyone is, based on your experience, what have you found to be a very effective way to learn something new?

For my courses, I do write a textbook for the course but I don't really write the books for the student to learn from. I write it more as a reference book and as a guide for me to teach the course....essentially for me to hash out what is important to teach in each chapter.

I also create the lecture videos and interactive tools to learn the subject. From what I've seen, the preferred method for most people to learn something is essentially by example and then trial and error (doing it on their own with immediate feedback of how they're doing). For my courses, this essentially happens like the following: student watching a 1-10 minute video on a very specific subject/lesson/topic. The video is me explaining the topic, working some example problems possibly etc. After this the student is immediately redirected to an online tool that requires the student to directly apply what they should have learned from the lecture video. For simple factual exercises I just use multiple choice questions. For complex topics (involving calculations or multiple-step procedures) I use simulation type exercises where the student has to work through the problem on their own. If the student gets stuck, they have tips that explain the specific step further. From what I've noticed, people seem to remember stuff better when they are actively thinking about what they've learned and are actively using the newly learned information to solve some sort of problem. When this type of thinking happens, it seems students get more "ah ha" type moments where it suddenly clicks for them. I have also made multiple "learning paths" for students to use. One path, you can just read the textbook and do practice problems, Another path you can do the lecture videos followed by the interactive problem sets and another path where you just get highly summarized study notes followed by the interactive study problems. This allows students to basically use whichever method works best for them without forcing them into a "one size fits all" model.

This is my method of doing effective teaching but my question is always the same: based on your experience, what have you found to be a very effective way to learn something new?

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#97
This guy seems to be searching for that magic pillow that you put the book under and sleep upon and later wake up with all the information & learning you were after downloaded and integrated into your person.

He says the key to getting there is better understanding our cognitive learning models.

But ask anyone who has mastered 'learning' (plenty such people exist) and they won't confess to you any magic pill.

Each time you want to learn something substantial or new, you've got to roll up your sleeves and do the crazy hard work to take new ideas and information and bring them into your present map of the world in a way that results in a new coherent map of the world. For any self-reflecting person, this is an internal transformation process. It's not a "medium problem"; no new medium is going to make that internal process any easier. And books and pen & paper & lectures etc are all dynamic tools that are each optimal at various times during a learning process.

And I would venture to say that you simply cannot do better than a book at building up and presenting a coherent thesis that can be used by someone in their learning process to move from one position of perception and understanding to another.

That learning (re-constructing your internal models) is hard seems (to me) prima facie a necessary thing. A magic pillow to get from A to B in a snap is just magical/fetish thinking.

Whenever I've gone from an 'A' to a 'B'... to really be able to master it, to wield it, to truly _know_ it... when I look back with self-reflection I do not see 'B' as this static plane ... the whole process to get there is the 'B'. So focusing on the medium is such a silly thing here, imo.

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#98

It's interesting how the author compares and contrasts learning from books and learning from lectures. I don't entirely disagree, but I think there's an implicit caveat here: these methods are often used inefficiently. They may be intrinsically inefficient, but I think there might be diminishing returns to designing an entirely new medium instead of encouraging a few comparatively simple - but significant - improveme…

> There might be a fundamentally novel and strictly superior way of learning, but it's hard for me to see which cognitive bases aren't covered by combining these two methods.

(Author here) I agree that methods like the ones you've described are indeed quite effective when executed successfully. I argued in the piece that this kind of process is often blocked on metacognition. That is: the reader has to regulate and monitor the processes you're describing while simultaneously grappling with new concepts. It's a lot to ask. And of course, the medium doesn't even explicitly ask it of the reader: when people do these kinds of methods, they're instigating that independently.

Even if we limit ourselves to just these methods, can't we imagine a medium which is somewhat more involved in the methods we claim are essential to understanding?

And if we accept that, one more provocation: wouldn't we want authorial intent to carry into the use of these methods? Given that the author is already carefully sculpting so much of the rest of the reading experience, why wouldn't we benefit from them extending their authorial direction to the metacognition around the book?

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#99
post #78
post #6

A number of times as a teenager I read several books on a subject and found that the first few were badly written and difficult to understand, while the last one set everything out very plainly and I felt if only I'd read that one first I needn't have wasted my time with the others. Only, once when I was half-way through that last one I realised that I was re-reading the first one I'd picked up. So I think books can…

I listen to audiobooks on non-fiction and find that relistening brings out much more depth in the ideas (and my comprehension of them) My new plan is to read a summary of the book’s ideas first, perhaps read the summary twice. Then see if this increases the initial immersion.

You might like Blinkist. It's an app that provides audio and text summaries of non-fiction books. I haven't tried it, but I've been hearing ads for it on some of my favorite podcasts.

https://www.blinkist.com/

Re: Books and lectures don't work

#100
It's been years since I read Guns, Germs and Steel, but I think I remember the one or other thing.

Off the top of my head: north/south axis of the Americas vs East/West of Europe/Axis - same crops can grow everywhere. No big mammals suitable for herding had survived in the Americas, sweetcorn only crop suitable for breeding for agriculture.

Writing may have been discovered in some places for fun, but discarded because it was useless - only became established when it was needed for bookkeeping.

One thing I think about a lot, actually, especially with all the discussion here in Europe about the European union: China didn't conquer the other continents because at some point in time, some emperor simply decided China would abandon sailing the high oceans, and China stuck to the decision for hundreds of years. Same thing couldn't happen in Europe because of competition between all the small kingdoms.

In general I seem to remember things from Jared Diamond's books. For many other books I would have to admit the article has a point.

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