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The ASF Resigns From the JCP Executive Committee

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Re: The ASF Resigns From the JCP Executive Committee

#41

Post by davidw »

grav1tas wrote: post #39
davidw wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem seems to be that you can't simply just go implement something independently and call it, say, "Dalvik", rather than Java, and avoid Oracle's lawyers, due to patents.

Then how difficult would it be to create a new Java that has the features (syntactical and whatever else) that everybody's been clamoring for and calling it a different name? C# basically did that, and it's still around....

That's exactly what I said. You can't just give it a different name and do a clean-room implementation, because it still likely violates some patents.

Re: The ASF Resigns From the JCP Executive Committee

#42

Post by dkarl »

crux_ wrote: post #19
lapusta wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. JSRs have never been leading the innovation in Java world: Ant, Maven, Velocity, Spring, Hibernate, Grails, Hadoop, GWT, Android, Struts, Wicket, Eclipse - none of them started as a JSR. The only JSR that matter is JavaSE and I don't see it having technical problems. JavaME is dying and Spring showed JavaEE how things should be done so they are catching up now.

A counterpoint: On the technical front, I see JavaSE/the JRE falling hopelessly behind C# and the CLR -- fear of Microsoft and distrust of Mono have kept the playing field a bit closer to being level, but I don't see Oracle as an organization that can really take advantage of that.

fear of Microsoft and distrust of Mono have kept the playing field a bit closer to being level, but I don't see Oracle as an organization that can really take advantage of that

Honestly, as someone who has no interest in Microsoft technologies and distrusts Mono, but who likes the idea of a batteries-included, CTO-friendly, cross-platform, JIT-compiling VM with a huge userbase and oodles of libraries, I am feeling a little lost now. Not that Java is going to die quickly -- I'm still learning Scala and expect that to be a good investment for a few years to come -- but it's starting to look like Java is a platform with a lot less future than I expected.

Re: The ASF Resigns From the JCP Executive Committee

#43

Post by kaffiene »

abp wrote: post #5

First: Further, the project communities of the ASF, home to Apache Tomcat, Ant, Xerces, Geronimo, Velocity and nearly a 100 mainstay java components have implemented countless JSRs and serve on and contribute to many of the JCPs technical expert groups. And then: To that end, our representative has informed the JCP's Program Management Office of our resignation, effective immediately. As such, the ASF is removing all…

Practically, I don't think it really matters at all. But it's a very significant symbolic move. It sends a message about where the Java community is now in relation to Oracle.

Of more concern will be Apache's attitude to new development in Java. Will they continue to use it and to make cool new stuff in Java, or is this a breaking point for them in terms of using the tech?

Re: The ASF Resigns From the JCP Executive Committee

#44

Post by arebop »

crux_ wrote: post #19
lapusta wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. JSRs have never been leading the innovation in Java world: Ant, Maven, Velocity, Spring, Hibernate, Grails, Hadoop, GWT, Android, Struts, Wicket, Eclipse - none of them started as a JSR. The only JSR that matter is JavaSE and I don't see it having technical problems. JavaME is dying and Spring showed JavaEE how things should be done so they are catching up now.

A counterpoint: On the technical front, I see JavaSE/the JRE falling hopelessly behind C# and the CLR -- fear of Microsoft and distrust of Mono have kept the playing field a bit closer to being level, but I don't see Oracle as an organization that can really take advantage of that.

You are right, and the fear & distrust go both ways. The .NET "community" is almost entirely Microsoft fans and a good number of shills. The shills are rabidly anti-FOSS, the Microsoft employees are about evenly divided between FOSS-hostile and MS-provincial (with a tiny minority pro-FOSS), and the rest are just unaware of anything that Microsoft isn't hyping.

It's very hard to get momentum behind a free software project on .NET, and once you do Microsoft and their shill army kills it by reinvention, heavy promotion of their vaporware, and badmouthing the competition.

It's really hard to work against the culture, and the dominant .NET culture sees Redmond as the One True Source for anything worth using.

Re: The ASF Resigns From the JCP Executive Committee

#47

Post by glenno »

brown9-2 wrote: post #40
nl wrote: post #31

For people confused about the impact of this: Having Apache on the EC (Executive Committee) strengthened Java by giving an official voice to the (large) open source Java community. This was useful for Java because Apache often agitated to make sure specifications were licensed under terms that are compatible with open source implementations. Open Source implementations have kept Java competitive with .NET in terms of…

However, Eclipse is different to Apache in that it is primarily a pay-to-play organisation This isn't related to the discussion at hand, but can you elaborate on this?

The Apache Foundation board was initially made up of people involved in creating Apache software, and membership is expanded through election by the existing board.

The Eclipse Foundation board is mainly representatives from companies who have paid the substantial "strategic member" fee.

Re: The ASF Resigns From the JCP Executive Committee

#49

Post by yesno »

lenni wrote: post #20
angrycoder wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That helps, but can someone provide a babblefish translation of what this means for those of us who don't live in the Java world? Is it basically... Dear Java, We remember when you used to be cool. Now you spend all of your time drinking and hanging out with lawyers. We are leaving and taking the dog and all of the CDs with us. Love, Apache

I believe that is basically it. They won't be participating in writing specifications, but I don't think that anyone will be stopping Apache (or anyone else) from implementing any of the JSRs. If a hypothetical Java Servlet API v4.0 would be released they could still make Tomcat be compliant with it. On the other hand Tomcat is very widely used in the not-quite-huge-enterprise companies and it is obviously helpful fo…

It might be a matter of time before Oracle decided to cut all of the oxygen lines for these open source solutions judging from Ellison's comment about RedHat business models.

What do you think would happen in order for a library to be certified (passed a certain TCK) would require to pay Oracle a huge amount of money?

Oracle can get more money from IBM, RedHat, SpringSource (SS uses a modified Tomcat for their tcServer) and a slew bunch of other companies.

Whether they'll do it or not, I don't know.

Re: The ASF Resigns From the JCP Executive Committee

#50

Post by Swannie »

davidw wrote: post #41
grav1tas wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then how difficult would it be to create a new Java that has the features (syntactical and whatever else) that everybody's been clamoring for and calling it a different name? C# basically did that, and it's still around....

That's exactly what I said. You can't just give it a different name and do a clean-room implementation, because it still likely violates some patents.

And the patents is where the problems lie. Which is the problem with not being able to pass the TCK - no access to the patent pool.

How does the MS CLR get around this issue? Surely their VM is infringing on some of this pool? Do they now licence from Oracle?

If only it WAS this simple... this hypothetical situation would be awesome!

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