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The ASF Resigns From the JCP Executive Committee

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Re: The ASF Resigns From the JCP Executive Committee

#31

Post by nl »

For people confused about the impact of this:

Having Apache on the EC (Executive Committee) strengthened Java by giving an official voice to the (large) open source Java community. This was useful for Java because Apache often agitated to make sure specifications were licensed under terms that are compatible with open source implementations. Open Source implementations have kept Java competitive with .NET in terms of price, and many specifications have grown out of open source Java projects.

The Eclipse organisation remains on the EC, so Oracle can point to them as a voice for open source. However, Eclipse is different to Apache in that it is primarily a pay-to-play organisation, whilst Apache is a meritocracy.

In terms of specifications themselves (JSRs), Apache will no longer automatically have a representative. Individual experts can still be invited, but Apache's withdrawal (as well as that of people like Doug Lea & Bob Lee) makes it less likely experts will want to serve on a JSR committee.

Re: The ASF Resigns From the JCP Executive Committee

#32

Post by russellperry »

Java by itself as a commercial entity is not extremely valuable. Not really having any clue how to get an ROI out of Java, Oracle like Sun before them is simply hedging their bets that owning/controlling Java IP (of any stripe) may in the future provide commercial returns or business leverage when a Java-based app or framework succeeds (see: the Android lawsuit, the MSVM lawsuit 10 years ago). I guess it's the only logical approach for a company that otherwise has no clue how to monetize a technology as widespread as Java.

Seriously, what did we actually think Oracle was going to do with Java? Get all open and community-minded and crap?

Re: The ASF Resigns From the JCP Executive Committee

#33

Post by wmf »

russellperry wrote: post #32

Java by itself as a commercial entity is not extremely valuable. Not really having any clue how to get an ROI out of Java, Oracle like Sun before them is simply hedging their bets that owning/controlling Java IP (of any stripe) may in the future provide commercial returns or business leverage when a Java-based app or framework succeeds (see: the Android lawsuit, the MSVM lawsuit 10 years ago). I guess it's the only l…

Oracle (or IBM) is profitable enough that they don't have to monetize Java at all.

Re: The ASF Resigns From the JCP Executive Committee

#34

Post by maddalab »

angrycoder wrote: post #13
kqr2 wrote: post #11

For people who are unfamiliar with all the acronyms: ASF : Apache Software Foundation EC : Executive Committee EE : Enterprise Edition JCP : Java Community Process JSR : Java Specification Request JSPA : Java Specification Participation Agreement SE : Standard Edition TCK : Test Compatibility Kit

That helps, but can someone provide a babblefish translation of what this means for those of us who don't live in the Java world? Is it basically... Dear Java, We remember when you used to be cool. Now you spend all of your time drinking and hanging out with lawyers. We are leaving and taking the dog and all of the CDs with us. Love, Apache

Translation :

We are breaking up, except this time, it's not me, it's you

-Kicking ass and taking names

Re: The ASF Resigns From the JCP Executive Committee

#35

Post by sigzero »

theBobMcCormick wrote: post #24
yewweitan wrote: post #23

As commentors have mentioned, you can't simply roll-your-own-Java without being at risk of a legal battle. Zooming out. What are the biggest technologies being affected by this, and what are the alternatives available to the creators and developers of those technologies? Would we end up in a situation where someone like Google would have to revamp their entire Android runtime?

I'm not sure that revamping would help. Android isn't a JVM, it's already it's own, independently designed and built virtual machine, and yet they're still getting sued by Oracle.

I think you need to re-read the lawsuit.

Re: The ASF Resigns From the JCP Executive Committee

#36

Post by mbreese »

wmf wrote: post #33
russellperry wrote: post #32

Java by itself as a commercial entity is not extremely valuable. Not really having any clue how to get an ROI out of Java, Oracle like Sun before them is simply hedging their bets that owning/controlling Java IP (of any stripe) may in the future provide commercial returns or business leverage when a Java-based app or framework succeeds (see: the Android lawsuit, the MSVM lawsuit 10 years ago). I guess it's the only l…

Oracle (or IBM) is profitable enough that they don't have to monetize Java at all.

But then they wouldn't be Oracle...

Re: The ASF Resigns From the JCP Executive Committee

#37

Post by technomancy »

sigzero wrote: post #35
theBobMcCormick wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that revamping would help. Android isn't a JVM, it's already it's own, independently designed and built virtual machine, and yet they're still getting sued by Oracle.

I think you need to re-read the lawsuit.

The claims in the lawsuit would apply to any modern virtual machine.

Re: The ASF Resigns From the JCP Executive Committee

#39

Post by grav1tas »

davidw wrote: post #15
timtadh wrote: post #12

My, perhaps naive, question is: will there now be a bifurcation of the Java community? Specifically, will there be an open community with its own standards and implementations, and the Oracle community with theirs.

The problem seems to be that you can't simply just go implement something independently and call it, say, "Dalvik", rather than Java, and avoid Oracle's lawyers, due to patents.

Then how difficult would it be to create a new Java that has the features (syntactical and whatever else) that everybody's been clamoring for and calling it a different name? C# basically did that, and it's still around....

Re: The ASF Resigns From the JCP Executive Committee

#40

Post by brown9-2 »

nl wrote: post #31

For people confused about the impact of this: Having Apache on the EC (Executive Committee) strengthened Java by giving an official voice to the (large) open source Java community. This was useful for Java because Apache often agitated to make sure specifications were licensed under terms that are compatible with open source implementations. Open Source implementations have kept Java competitive with .NET in terms of…

However, Eclipse is different to Apache in that it is primarily a pay-to-play organisation

This isn't related to the discussion at hand, but can you elaborate on this?

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