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Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

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Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#181

Post by beezle »

mromanuk wrote: post #15
jostmey wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that people will stop using google if it can’t help them find useful information. Google’s leadership seems to not understand or not care about how the internet works

It depends. Most people, only want the answer to the “question” they typed. And if that is answered in a widget, cloaking the original content, they don’t care. That’s what google realized.

Earlier today I wanted to search for info concerning whether a person had to turn in everything they found in the street. Which one returned any relevant results?

Bing: https://www.bing.com/search?q=do+i+have+to+turn+in+everythin...

Google: https://www.google.com/search?q=do+i+have+to+turn+in+everyth...

Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#182

Post by dang »

vatueil wrote: post #169
dang wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually not so common that comments are as throughly negative as that. Rather, there are lot of partially negative comments, the kind where the author often doesn't even realize they're coming across that way. When you get enough of those, fumes accumulate into an atmosphere of negativity that is hard to breathe in. I think this is what leads to an overall impression that sticks. Unfortunately, this kind of neg…

> And yes, this topic is something of an exception. Is it, though? The top comments include ad hominem attacks on Google engineers, such as the replies to: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19886610 I appreciate how you responded to the worst attack, at least, but the general viciousness is still disappointing. I don't work for Google, but I'm sure not eager to present a contrary view if I'm just going to be misla…

I meant that the stridently negative comments appear more often on this topic, as on a few others.

Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#183

Post by jridgewell »

HALtheWise wrote: post #141
superasn wrote: post #71

Why doesn't Google treat all websites that load under 100ms at par with an AMP site? They keep using the ruse that AMP is important because it is all about fast loading sites and less frustrating user experience but they have page speed insights, and already rank sites based on load speed so why force this non standard on everyone? If they just said we'll give you a bolt icon and the perks for a site that loads under…

Basically, because it isn't actually possible to make a website that loads in under 100ms on poor connections any other way. For reference, on the fast university wifi I am currently connected to, news.ycombinator.com loads in 499ms. When I switch to my phone's hotspot, that rises to 2.38 seconds, and on a simulated slow 3G network, that rises to 6.51 seconds. I haven't tested a 2G connection in India, but wouldn't b…

This is the most well-informed comment about AMP I've ever read.

Disclosure: I work on AMP.

Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#184

Post by JoshMnem »

The open WWW is one of the greatest things that humans have achieved, and Google is in the process of destroying it. It looks like the goal is to replace the Web with their own product where ads and tracking can't be blocked, and fewer people leave Google's servers.

This new replacement for the Web will only fully work in Google Chrome, because Google is abandoning true web standards with things like AMP and Portals. (Being forced to include Google's JavaScript in your web pages under threat of losing your traffic is not a real web standard.)

The bulk of what is published online will have Google's visual branding (Material Design), and you might never leave Google's servers (as a user) or be able to fully control your own tech stack (as a publisher).

AMP is a vicious attack on the open Web and a completely unethical power grab. This is why one company shouldn't control the browser, the search engine, and the operating system at the same time.

Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#185

Post by anfilt »

Gaelan wrote: post #177
anfilt wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can already tell browser to preload content without AMP. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Preloading... You can also prefetch. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Link_prefe... Also preloading/pre-fetching does not get around latency. It just changes when it happens.

HAL, earlier in the thread: > Unfortunately, users have a strong privacy expectation that random websites will not be notified that you are interested in them until you actually click the link in search results (or news, or whatever). For precaching to work without violating user privacy, the data needs to be loaded from some server that already knows that the link was shown to you, so there is no privacy violation f…

And in firefox I can enable or disable pre-fetching/preloading not sure about chrome.

However, if the user has disabled pre-fetching what makes it okay for AMP to do it?

Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#186

Post by JoshMnem »

dang wrote: post #182
vatueil wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And yes, this topic is something of an exception. Is it, though? The top comments include ad hominem attacks on Google engineers, such as the replies to: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19886610 I appreciate how you responded to the worst attack, at least, but the general viciousness is still disappointing. I don't work for Google, but I'm sure not eager to present a contrary view if I'm just going to be misla…

I meant that the stridently negative comments appear more often on this topic, as on a few others.

> negative comments appear more often on this topic

That's because the Web itself is under attack. Google is doing something completely unethical.

Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#187

Post by JoshMnem »

ivanbakel wrote: post #25
jostmey wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that people will stop using google if it can’t help them find useful information. Google’s leadership seems to not understand or not care about how the internet works

I think it's highly naive to suggest that Google's leadership is operating in complete ignorance of their own product. This is the company of analytics - whatever approach is being taken is probably backed by a gargantuan amount of data. That doesn't mean it's good for the web, but "what (the most) users want" is Google's strong point. And this is par for the "the internet is now 4 websites" course, so I don't think…

I don't think it's "what users want" as much as it's "what makes the most money out of the things that we can convince users to want". And "what can we manipulate our engineers into believing about what they are building so that they won't protest".

Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#188

Post by JoshMnem »

jridgewell wrote: post #183
HALtheWise wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically, because it isn't actually possible to make a website that loads in under 100ms on poor connections any other way. For reference, on the fast university wifi I am currently connected to, news.ycombinator.com loads in 499ms. When I switch to my phone's hotspot, that rises to 2.38 seconds, and on a simulated slow 3G network, that rises to 6.51 seconds. I haven't tested a 2G connection in India, but wouldn't b…

This is the most well-informed comment about AMP I've ever read. Disclosure: I work on AMP.

> Disclosure: I work on AMP.

Do you all just not think about the long-term implications of what you're building? It's going to destroy the open WWW.

Web publishers (and other people who are paying attention) don't want AMP or Portals, but they are being strong-armed into it under threat of losing their traffic.

Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#189

Post by JoshMnem »

lwansbrough wrote: post #28

I hold the people developing this personally accountable for its negative impact on the web. Each developer’s role is just small enough so they feel powerless or don’t recognize the larger impact of their work. If you were paid to work on this, you are either wilfully ignorant or morally corrupt. Sure, this is only a small loss for the open web. But Google is a factory for small losses for the open web. I hope the pa…

> If you were paid to work on this, you are either wilfully ignorant or morally corrupt.

I think the ignorance comes from living in a bubble. It's hard to notice the bubble when you're inside of it, and programmers get manipulated too.

Like someone else in the thread mentioned, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."

Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#190

Post by anfilt »

Rebelgecko wrote: post #179
Gaelan wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HAL, earlier in the thread: > Unfortunately, users have a strong privacy expectation that random websites will not be notified that you are interested in them until you actually click the link in search results (or news, or whatever). For precaching to work without violating user privacy, the data needs to be loaded from some server that already knows that the link was shown to you, so there is no privacy violation f…

>Unfortunately, users have a strong privacy expectation that random websites will not be notified that you are interested in them until you actually click the link in search results I'm not sure that this is actually true, at least for the vast majority of users.

You can disable or enable in firefox. However if users do have strong privacy preferences what makes it okay for AMP to do that. At least a browser setting the user can configure.
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