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Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

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Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#171

Post by vatueil »

bduerst wrote: post #152
jimmaswell wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Google make its own content which gets preferentially treated based on AMP, or why is this anticompetitive?

It's not anticompetitive. It's a web standard that anyone can roll on their own domain (like amp.reddit.com), or host on a certified CDN (like Cloudflare) to get the icon in search results. Bing, Yandex, etc. can add icons or carousels in their results too if they wanted to.

In fact, Bing does have a news carousel with AMP icons and their own AMP cache. Microsoft has long used AMP and their support is increasing:

- https://blogs.bing.com/search/September-2016/bing-app-joins-...

- https://blogs.bing.com/Webmaster-Blog/September-2018/Introdu...

- https://www.bing.com/amp/s/venturebeat.com/2019/05/09/google...

Microsoft is part of the AMP Project's governance as well, along with Cloudflare, Twitter, and other members: https://blog.amp.dev/2018/11/30/amp-projects-new-governance-...

I wouldn't be surprised if AMP starts appearing in other Bing search results, or if they start supporting links to AMP pages other than news articles in their carousels (which when you get down to it is basically all this announcement is about).

Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#172

Post by twblalock »

FridgeSeal wrote: post #167
HALtheWise wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It simply isn't true that there is no getting around network latency. For example, when I tap an image in a Facebook feed in their app, the story actually does load instantly, regardless of how slow my network is, because it is already downloaded on my device. It may even work offline. AMP is an attempt to match that performance with web pages. Sure, none of this is true if the user manually types into the address ba…

That latency and network slowness still exists. It’s just being hidden from you. It’s disingenuous to compare AMP style loading with a normal page visit and say “AMP is faster”; if I could preload my webpage before you click on it, it would be faster to load as well! That doesn’t actually mean the website is any faster.

> That doesn’t actually mean the website is any faster.

It is perceived as faster by the users, and that's the only standard of speed that users really care about.

Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#173

Post by bamboozled »

HALtheWise wrote: post #163
anfilt wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caches disabled... The browser caches things for a reason. I understand disabling caches to measure the network performance. However, that does entirely give a clear picture. If your wanting things you have already visited to load instantly it's hard to beat the browsers own caches. The first thing that effects page time is network latency and there is no getting around that. AMP may help because google has lots of s…

It simply isn't true that there is no getting around network latency. For example, when I tap an image in a Facebook feed in their app, the story actually does load instantly, regardless of how slow my network is, because it is already downloaded on my device. It may even work offline. AMP is an attempt to match that performance with web pages. Sure, none of this is true if the user manually types into the address ba…

So they used clever tricks to get around network latency, but there was still latency in the transaction at some point.

Saying there they removed latency is like saying they’ve removed the speed of light. Didn’t happen, they just preload content for you, because in you’re case, it’s possible to do so.

Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#174

Post by anfilt »

HALtheWise wrote: post #163
anfilt wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caches disabled... The browser caches things for a reason. I understand disabling caches to measure the network performance. However, that does entirely give a clear picture. If your wanting things you have already visited to load instantly it's hard to beat the browsers own caches. The first thing that effects page time is network latency and there is no getting around that. AMP may help because google has lots of s…

It simply isn't true that there is no getting around network latency. For example, when I tap an image in a Facebook feed in their app, the story actually does load instantly, regardless of how slow my network is, because it is already downloaded on my device. It may even work offline. AMP is an attempt to match that performance with web pages. Sure, none of this is true if the user manually types into the address ba…

You can already tell browser to preload content without AMP.

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Preloading...

You can also prefetch.

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Link_prefe...

Also preloading/pre-fetching does not get around latency. It just changes when it happens.

Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#175

Post by anfilt »

twblalock wrote: post #172
FridgeSeal wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That latency and network slowness still exists. It’s just being hidden from you. It’s disingenuous to compare AMP style loading with a normal page visit and say “AMP is faster”; if I could preload my webpage before you click on it, it would be faster to load as well! That doesn’t actually mean the website is any faster.

> That doesn’t actually mean the website is any faster. It is perceived as faster by the users, and that's the only standard of speed that users really care about.

There also a disadvantage to pre-fetching/preloading data. For users with data caps it wastes data on something they may never view.

Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#177

Post by Gaelan »

anfilt wrote: post #174
HALtheWise wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It simply isn't true that there is no getting around network latency. For example, when I tap an image in a Facebook feed in their app, the story actually does load instantly, regardless of how slow my network is, because it is already downloaded on my device. It may even work offline. AMP is an attempt to match that performance with web pages. Sure, none of this is true if the user manually types into the address ba…

You can already tell browser to preload content without AMP. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Preloading... You can also prefetch. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Link_prefe... Also preloading/pre-fetching does not get around latency. It just changes when it happens.

HAL, earlier in the thread:

> Unfortunately, users have a strong privacy expectation that random websites will not be notified that you are interested in them until you actually click the link in search results (or news, or whatever). For precaching to work without violating user privacy, the data needs to be loaded from some server that already knows that the link was shown to you, so there is no privacy violation from giving it that information. AMP's solution is for the host company of the results page to fill that role.

Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#178

Post by manigandham »

HALtheWise wrote: post #141
superasn wrote: post #71

Why doesn't Google treat all websites that load under 100ms at par with an AMP site? They keep using the ruse that AMP is important because it is all about fast loading sites and less frustrating user experience but they have page speed insights, and already rank sites based on load speed so why force this non standard on everyone? If they just said we'll give you a bolt icon and the perks for a site that loads under…

Basically, because it isn't actually possible to make a website that loads in under 100ms on poor connections any other way. For reference, on the fast university wifi I am currently connected to, news.ycombinator.com loads in 499ms. When I switch to my phone's hotspot, that rises to 2.38 seconds, and on a simulated slow 3G network, that rises to 6.51 seconds. I haven't tested a 2G connection in India, but wouldn't b…

Preloading is downloading data that you didn't actively request. It's a tradeoff between data usage vs latency so those users on limited connections might end up paying more in data vs saving a few seconds in load time.

Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#179

Post by Rebelgecko »

Gaelan wrote: post #177
anfilt wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can already tell browser to preload content without AMP. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Preloading... You can also prefetch. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Link_prefe... Also preloading/pre-fetching does not get around latency. It just changes when it happens.

HAL, earlier in the thread: > Unfortunately, users have a strong privacy expectation that random websites will not be notified that you are interested in them until you actually click the link in search results (or news, or whatever). For precaching to work without violating user privacy, the data needs to be loaded from some server that already knows that the link was shown to you, so there is no privacy violation f…

>Unfortunately, users have a strong privacy expectation that random websites will not be notified that you are interested in them until you actually click the link in search results

I'm not sure that this is actually true, at least for the vast majority of users.

Re: Google Creates 'Dedicated Placement' in Search Results for AMP Stories

#180

Post by andrekandre »

bduerst wrote: post #155
dfabulich wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AMP is not fast because it's served from google's CDN. That's a lie, It has always been a lie, and it will always be a lie. AMP is fast because it's incompatible with 99% of the bullshit client cpu heavy tracking and ad libraries, so they don't get included inside AMP pages. AMP is fast because of prefetching. That's not a "lie." You can measure this. When you click an AMP link, the page is already downloaded. Pref…

Link prefetching and rendering isn't unique to AMP - it was even added by W3C to be part of the HTML5 standard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_prefetching#Prefetching_i... Even Internet Explorer will prefetch and render pages.

now that is pretty dangerous if i may say so... what happens when a search result for something totally innocuous turns up shady webpages that you never click on but get pre-loaded and cached by your browser?
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