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Boeing altered key switches in 737 MAX cockpit limiting ability to shut off MCAS

seattletimes.com

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Re: Boeing altered key switches in 737 MAX cockpit limiting ability to shut off MCAS

#71

Post by Farradfahren »

leetrout wrote: post #3

It has been fascinating to watch layer after layer peel back around all of this. Bad design decisions forced from chasing the bottom dollar, optional, critical safety features with the warning indicator and now these switches. > Boeing declined to detail the specific functionality of the two switches That's also interesting- I assume they are in CYA mode and wouldn't discuss anything that could be sensitive to the cu…

A lot of customers will put this plane on there personal "No-fly-list" and that will be the end of it. It will become "the poor mens" plane, and bannished to non-first-world air spaces.

Re: Boeing altered key switches in 737 MAX cockpit limiting ability to shut off MCAS

#72

Post by [deleted] »

addicted wrote: post #69
rootusrootus wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point was that we should figure out why one aircrew worked it out, and one did not. If we want to fix the process, we have to consider the humans. I get the impression from this whole debacle that one significant contributor to the accidents was that Boeing's idea of what the procedures should be and what pilots actually do is different enough to be catastrophic. Putting everything else aside for a moment, this ha…

It’s like seeing someone make a half court shot in basketball at the buzzer and wondering why other players don’t do the same. You could adjust the probability to it being a 3 pt shot, dunk, or free throw. The failures in the Boeing 737 introduced a significant probability of unrecoverable failure. The fact that a few pilots managed to recover does not mean that the ones who didn’t recover did something wrong. On the…

[deleted]

Re: Boeing altered key switches in 737 MAX cockpit limiting ability to shut off MCAS

#73

Post by [deleted] »

massysett wrote: post #46
djsumdog wrote: post #28

What is the endgame now for 737 MAX planes? Every airline using them has had several weeks to totally reorganize to deal with these huge missing parts of their fleets. Boeing keeps talking about fixing them and putting them back in the air, but I dunno. At this point, it should be agreed the fundamental design flaws are serious, and Boeing should have simply made a brand new plane, with much more modern controls and…

These planes cost at least $100 million each. They will fix them and get them flying again.

[deleted]

Re: Boeing altered key switches in 737 MAX cockpit limiting ability to shut off MCAS

#74

Post by cma »

davewasthere wrote: post #66
massysett wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These planes cost at least $100 million each. They will fix them and get them flying again.

Yeah, but who is going to want to fly in one again? Even working in aviation in the past and knowing that they've probably nailed the issue, I'd still be less than keen.

Many people just sort tickets by cheapest and choose that as their flight.

Re: Boeing altered key switches in 737 MAX cockpit limiting ability to shut off MCAS

#75

Post by jsjohnst »

peteradio wrote: post #60
jsjohnst wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So they removed a useful, granular functionality ... without clear explanation I’m as negative as the next person when it comes to the 737 Max, but this is just a bit to far. Read the rest of the article and you’ll understand a logical reason why this was done and how it was communicated.

What was the reasoning?

The linked article says why, but to paraphrase, the training has always said to flip both switches. Previously the only time you’d need to flip the switches was due to an electric motor being stuck-on. It’s only with the MAX that there was an actual useful reason to flip one vs the other, but the training was always to flip both and Boeing decided to simplify it.

My personal guess is that it was internally totally disparate teams inside Boeing and neither communicated about the change. Is that bad? Certainly. But how often does that happen in big companies? All the time. Sadly it might have had a part in causing fatalities in this case, but doesn’t make it any less common.

Either way, it’s not like the change definitively had any bearing. Turning off all electronic control was still the training given to pilots and then reverting to manually turning a wheel that controlled the horizontal stabilizer via cable. It’s not an easy thing to do (turn the wheel manually), especially during a nose dive, but it’s been done before in an emergency and pilots are trained on it.

Ultimately, the FAA had a prestigious record due in part to having excellent checks and balances. Whoever decided to move away from DERs to ARs ultimately should get the brunt of this blame, but sadly, that’ll never happen.

Re: Boeing altered key switches in 737 MAX cockpit limiting ability to shut off MCAS

#76

Post by skellera »

davewasthere wrote: post #66
massysett wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These planes cost at least $100 million each. They will fix them and get them flying again.

Yeah, but who is going to want to fly in one again? Even working in aviation in the past and knowing that they've probably nailed the issue, I'd still be less than keen.

Most people don’t even think about the plane they’re flying in. It will not be that big of an issue to continue using them unless some group actively tries to warn passengers about flying in those specific planes.

Re: Boeing altered key switches in 737 MAX cockpit limiting ability to shut off MCAS

#77

Post by staunch »

deskamess wrote: post #57
erentz wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Had Boeing built the 737 at the time Airbus built the A320 they would've had a taller undercarriage also. For example the narrow body 757 built around the time of the A320 does have this. When the 737 was built back in the 60s it was intended to be a small regional jet, not the continent and ocean crossing aircraft it evolved into over the years since. It originally came with a retractable staircase for passengers to…

Why would they not have gone with a, say, 757 MAX - it seems to fit the bill spec wise. Is it that global pilot pool is not as great for the 757 as 737?

I don't think it matters how big the global pilot pool is for 737s. What matters to a specific airline is how many of their pilots are type rated for a particular aircraft. An airline that has standardized on the 737 is going to have a pool made up of mostly 737 rated pilots.

Re: Boeing altered key switches in 737 MAX cockpit limiting ability to shut off MCAS

#78

Post by guelo »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #51
dd36 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gotta love deregulation. How many institutions are left? Any? CFPB, EPA, HUD, Interior are all run by people that don’t believe in their missions. It’s all about undermining from inside. Who protects the public when private rights of collective action are forbidden by arbitration agreements and the government has been captured by private interests?

EPA has been a joke for at least two, I want to say three, administrations now. Now they're just a joke that doesn't impede business quite so much.

Explain. What about it has made it a joke?

Re: Boeing altered key switches in 737 MAX cockpit limiting ability to shut off MCAS

#79

Post by rootusrootus »

addicted wrote: post #69
rootusrootus wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point was that we should figure out why one aircrew worked it out, and one did not. If we want to fix the process, we have to consider the humans. I get the impression from this whole debacle that one significant contributor to the accidents was that Boeing's idea of what the procedures should be and what pilots actually do is different enough to be catastrophic. Putting everything else aside for a moment, this ha…

It’s like seeing someone make a half court shot in basketball at the buzzer and wondering why other players don’t do the same. You could adjust the probability to it being a 3 pt shot, dunk, or free throw. The failures in the Boeing 737 introduced a significant probability of unrecoverable failure. The fact that a few pilots managed to recover does not mean that the ones who didn’t recover did something wrong. On the…

Sorry to confuse, I am not really interested in assigning blame. I am more interested to see what can be learned from this so flying continues to get safer. That will include looking at how the pilots responded to the training material in practice, and figuring out how that plays into designing future procedures, documentation, and training. I get that nobody here seems to have much appreciation for human factors, but I fly a lot. I do care :)

Re: Boeing altered key switches in 737 MAX cockpit limiting ability to shut off MCAS

#80

Post by manigandham »

djsumdog wrote: post #28

What is the endgame now for 737 MAX planes? Every airline using them has had several weeks to totally reorganize to deal with these huge missing parts of their fleets. Boeing keeps talking about fixing them and putting them back in the air, but I dunno. At this point, it should be agreed the fundamental design flaws are serious, and Boeing should have simply made a brand new plane, with much more modern controls and…

There's no fundamental design flaw, the aircraft is sound. The problem came from using software systems to artificially make the plane behave like older designs to avoid entirely new training and certifications.

Even that would've been acceptable and similar systems are already in use in other planes but it was the inadequate info, redundancy, warnings and controls to disable the system that created the problem.

It's easily fixable but still a tragedy of greed and oversight that led to the situation in the first place.

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