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Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

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Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#81

Post by tinus_hn »

lqet wrote: post #30
adwww wrote: post #22

When I was last renting (in the UK) I changed my locks the day I moved in, then swapped them back to the original cylinders when I left. I thought it was pretty good practice not to have a door with an unknown number of previous tennants, cleaners, letting agents, landlords etc with access.

Is this legal? At least here in Germany, the apartment owner is allowed to enter your apartment using his key in emergency situations. [0] I can imagine that you can be held liable if, for example, a fire breaks out in your apartment, the apartment owner notices it, tries to enter your apartment to extinguish it, cannot enter because of changed lock, and the building burns down. [0] as others have mentioned below, th…

Then you aren’t allowed to use a door latch. A rule an owner is allowed to enter doesn’t mean you have to make it possible, just that you can’t complain if he succeeds in entering.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#82

Post by thrower123 »

icebraining wrote: post #78
Faaak wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's an emergency, you kick the door. If it's not an emergency, then you don't need to enter the apartment without the tenant.

Who pays for the broken door?

If it is really an emergency (fire, heat failure, plumbing emergency, etc), not kicking down the door will cost far more than the $200 that a new door costs.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#83

Post by zaarn »

CaptainZapp wrote: post #48
pjc50 wrote: post #23

The comments seem to be missing the two key aspects: accessibility and surveillance. The smart lock requires you to have a charged, working smartphone that you can use in order to get into your own apartment. One of the claimants is 93 and lacks the manual dexterity to do that. On top of that, smart locks can report when you enter and exit your home to the landlord; and, if under the landlord control, can provide oth…

I don't know what the tenancy law is in NY, but in the UK this is supposed to require the permission of the tenant except in an emergency. I can't speak for America or NY, but Switzerland has exactly the same tenancy law. The landlord must announce a visit to the appartment like 48 hours in advance an he cannot abuse the privilege. Essentially you "own" the rented appartment during your tennancy. Emergencies (i.e. a…

>Essentially you "own" the rented appartment.

Possession vs Ownership. In some countries, there law makes a difference and in some like Switzerland and Germany, for example, the possession of an object (or apartment) gives you a number of rights that the landlord can't annihilate by adding more words to a contract.

While in germany the landlord is the owner of the appartment, they have no right to enter it as they want, use it as they want or do anything but emergency work without the permission of whoever pays rent.

On the other hand, since the renter is not in ownership but mere possession of the apartment, they can´t do as they want either; they can't take down a wall even if it's cleared by an engineer to be safe, the landlord has to approve any permanent changes to their ownership unless the contract gives the renter some free reign.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#84

Post by [deleted] »

tinus_hn wrote: post #81
lqet wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this legal? At least here in Germany, the apartment owner is allowed to enter your apartment using his key in emergency situations. [0] I can imagine that you can be held liable if, for example, a fire breaks out in your apartment, the apartment owner notices it, tries to enter your apartment to extinguish it, cannot enter because of changed lock, and the building burns down. [0] as others have mentioned below, th…

Then you aren’t allowed to use a door latch. A rule an owner is allowed to enter doesn’t mean you have to make it possible, just that you can’t complain if he succeeds in entering.

[deleted]

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#85

Post by vonuebelgarten »

adwww wrote: post #22

When I was last renting (in the UK) I changed my locks the day I moved in, then swapped them back to the original cylinders when I left. I thought it was pretty good practice not to have a door with an unknown number of previous tennants, cleaners, letting agents, landlords etc with access.

This is also standard practice here in Brazil.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#86

Post by thrower123 »

londons_explore wrote: post #79
sc11 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the ability to immediately remove previous tenants access to the home This doesn't really require a smart lock. In Germany it's common to replace the lock immediately once you rent a place and put the original lock back in when you move out. This prevents the landlord, previous tenants and whoever else might still have keys from entering without your permission.

Replacing locks is typically very expensive unless you have the expertise to do it yourself though? One can easily pay £500 ($700 USD) to change the locks on a home in the UK.

I think it would really depend on the type of the locks. Standard door handles and deadbolts cost on the order of $20 apiece, and only require a phillips screwdriver and maybe 10 minutes to change.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#87

Post by glastra »

syshum wrote: post #33

>>>Lisa Gallaudet: characterizing the settlement as a win for the tenants is "misleading." two seconds later >>Lisa Gallaudet: when parties come to an agreement to resolve litigation, it's a win for both sides." So is this lawyer being misleading by calling it a win...

Add 'only' to the first sentence. Problem solved.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#88

Post by sc11 »

londons_explore wrote: post #79
sc11 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the ability to immediately remove previous tenants access to the home This doesn't really require a smart lock. In Germany it's common to replace the lock immediately once you rent a place and put the original lock back in when you move out. This prevents the landlord, previous tenants and whoever else might still have keys from entering without your permission.

Replacing locks is typically very expensive unless you have the expertise to do it yourself though? One can easily pay £500 ($700 USD) to change the locks on a home in the UK.

Typical apartment door locks are very easy to change yourself, at least the kind that's most common here. Requires some relatively simple measurements and screwing in/out a few screws. Hiring someone to do it costs ~150-200€ (130-175£), lock excluded.

This guide has an illustration: https://www.obi.de/magazin/bauen/tuerschloss-wechseln (text is German but the pictures show everything)

Perhaps in the UK different kinds of locks that are harder to change are more common?

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#89

Post by throwaway743 »

CaptainZapp wrote: post #48
pjc50 wrote: post #23

The comments seem to be missing the two key aspects: accessibility and surveillance. The smart lock requires you to have a charged, working smartphone that you can use in order to get into your own apartment. One of the claimants is 93 and lacks the manual dexterity to do that. On top of that, smart locks can report when you enter and exit your home to the landlord; and, if under the landlord control, can provide oth…

I don't know what the tenancy law is in NY, but in the UK this is supposed to require the permission of the tenant except in an emergency. I can't speak for America or NY, but Switzerland has exactly the same tenancy law. The landlord must announce a visit to the appartment like 48 hours in advance an he cannot abuse the privilege. Essentially you "own" the rented appartment during your tennancy. Emergencies (i.e. a…

NY also requires an announcement/request 24hrs (maybe 48hrs?) in advance, and landlords are permitted to enter in case of an emergency.

Read up after having a pretty scarring experience about two years ago. I like to take long showers to relax. One day I took a longer than usual shower and just so happened to be rubbing one out. Landlord busted into the bathroom mid rub out saying the water was running too long. I flipped a shit, read up on the laws afterward (previously skimmed them over and had a sense it was/is illegal), wrote a long letter hinting at taking legal action/very real what if scenarios (gf showering,etc). Rent hasn't increased since, beyond nice whenever we see each other, has even invited me to watch the soccer game with him a couple times after dropping off rent...

Regardless, what he did was fucked/illegal, and I was beyond embarrassed, though now I laugh about it when thinking back or a buddy brings it up

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#90

Post by setquk »

adwww wrote: post #22

When I was last renting (in the UK) I changed my locks the day I moved in, then swapped them back to the original cylinders when I left. I thought it was pretty good practice not to have a door with an unknown number of previous tennants, cleaners, letting agents, landlords etc with access.

I did this as well after having a couple of snooping landlords.

Also it's empowering. One rental I had, prior to the tenancy deposit protection scheme I had a serial con artist landlord. At the end of the tenancy, he billed my entire £600 deposit return to three companies he owned. One for gardening, one for cleaning and one for maintenance. This made it difficult for a claim to be placed upon him. This was without entering the property, because I had changed the locks. The property was left immaculate. I took photos to cover my arse. Edit: to note I completely ripped out the overgrown garden in that time and cleaned it up to the point it was workable and decorated half the place so I added value to his property. He evicted us because he could rent it out for more money.

Retribution was simple. He didn't have a valid address on the tenancy contract. When he asked where to return the keys to, he sent me an SMS to just put them through the letter box. So I did. I put the keys inside a zip lock bag and used an 8 foot bamboo stick to poke them through the letterbox half way down the hall, double locked the security door from the outside and chucked the keys for the actual barrels down the drain in the street. My wife decided to add insult to this injury by spreading marmite all around the inside of the letter box.

The next morning I woke up to about 20 missed calls and 3 voice mails calling me all sorts of names and threatening to kill me and was going to sue me for new locks and a new shirt.

I went and bought another pay as you go SIM and never heard a thing.

Edit: just looked the guy up. He's still going. If you rent in Nottingham, keep an eye out for a cunt who turns up on a motorbike. Ask for a passport or driving license for ID from direct rent landlords, not just business correspondence.

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