Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords • Hacker News Board

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#61

Post by cr1895 » Fri, May 10, 2019, 10:59 AM UTC

Faaak wrote: post #57

CaptainZapp wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what the tenancy law is in NY, but in the UK this is supposed to require the permission of the tenant except in an emergency. I can't speak for America or NY, but Switzerland has exactly the same tenancy law. The landlord must announce a visit to the appartment like 48 hours in advance an he cannot abuse the privilege. Essentially you "own" the rented appartment during your tennancy. Emergencies (i.e. a…

Exactly. A "bail" is you compensating the landlord for a resource they lend you. You can do (almost) anything you want in your rented house.. at the only condition that you give it back as it was before (minus normal deterioration). If there's an emergency, the fire services will kick the door.

>A "bail" is you compensating the landlord for a resource they lend you.

Deposit? Haven't heard that name before.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#62

Post by Loic » Fri, May 10, 2019, 11:00 AM UTC

lqet wrote: post #30

adwww wrote: post #22

When I was last renting (in the UK) I changed my locks the day I moved in, then swapped them back to the original cylinders when I left. I thought it was pretty good practice not to have a door with an unknown number of previous tennants, cleaners, letting agents, landlords etc with access.

Is this legal? At least here in Germany, the apartment owner is allowed to enter your apartment using his key in emergency situations. [0] I can imagine that you can be held liable if, for example, a fire breaks out in your apartment, the apartment owner notices it, tries to enter your apartment to extinguish it, cannot enter because of changed lock, and the building burns down. [0] as others have mentioned below, th…

The owner is allowed to keep a key only if the tenant is allowing him. You can change all the locks as tenant if you do not allow him and if you are not sure he is not keeping a key. If your contract stipulates that you must leave the owner a key, you can still change the lock, the clause in the contract is by law not valid.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#63

Post by schlowmo » Fri, May 10, 2019, 11:00 AM UTC

lqet wrote: post #30

adwww wrote: post #22

When I was last renting (in the UK) I changed my locks the day I moved in, then swapped them back to the original cylinders when I left. I thought it was pretty good practice not to have a door with an unknown number of previous tennants, cleaners, letting agents, landlords etc with access.

Is this legal? At least here in Germany, the apartment owner is allowed to enter your apartment using his key in emergency situations. [0] I can imagine that you can be held liable if, for example, a fire breaks out in your apartment, the apartment owner notices it, tries to enter your apartment to extinguish it, cannot enter because of changed lock, and the building burns down. [0] as others have mentioned below, th…

> "At least here in Germany, the apartment owner is allowed to enter your apartment using his key in emergency situations."

I am not a lawyer but I know that this is a common misunderstanding in Germany. The landlord is not allowed to keep a key to the apartment he rented out, unless you're explicitly consent to it.[0]

You have to grant him access in case of an emergency and if you don't do that, forced entry may be legal (like in the case of a pipe burst).

[0] https://www.mieterbund.de/index.php?id=566

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#64

Post by crankylinuxuser » Fri, May 10, 2019, 11:00 AM UTC

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #51

Y_Y wrote: post #5

Most house locks are trivial to pick in about 30 seconds, and what I've seen of "smart" locks isn't much better. I think if you were really serious about preventing intruders (rather than discouraging opportunism) you need alarms and cameras and someone with a big stick.

Aren't security locks common over there? The typical night latch (Yale lock) is super easy to pick, but it wouldn't be easy to get UK insurance without a 5 or 7 lever Chubb lock, or one of the newer security locks. So pretty much everywhere has one - and quite often both. Newer doors tend to have multiple bolts in three places, operated by the single security key. Just a night latch might be used for internal doors,…

Thats because in the USA, the next level after an easy to pick lock is a dog. And after the dog, is a homeowner with a rifle, shotgun, or pistol.

Unlike many jurisdictions all through Europe, the US has guns equaling in quantity to that of Somalia or Uruguay. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g...

Given the amount of guns (100+ per 100 people), and that some have a stockpile while others have none, you're taking your life in your hands if you want to break in and burglarize.

Edit: -1? Did I say something factually incorrect? Given many states have castle laws, you can legally blow someone away if you feel threatened. This absolutely does come up in home security... Whether people want to discuss it or not.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#65

Post by michaelt » Fri, May 10, 2019, 11:03 AM UTC

CaptainZapp wrote: post #55

tempguy9999 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> require written authorization by the landlord How are they going to even know? > ...you can't waltz into... I've never come across a key that couldn't be duplicated with a quick £5 waltz. IME only I suppose.

For example : [1] & [2] Only the entity ordring the locks is authorized to have additional keys made. And it's pretty heavily enforced by the manufacturers and distibuters. Copies are also more than 5 quid. [1] https://www.dormakaba.com/hr-hr/proizvodi/proizvodi/mechanic... [2] https://www.assaabloy.ch/en/local/switzerland/landingpage/as... Edited to add : While the web pages talk pretty much about smart locks, both…

Maybe it's that I've never rented a nice enough place, but all my past landlords have chosen the £10-a-lock non-patent-protected locks over the £100-a-lock high security locks.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#66

Post by skrause » Fri, May 10, 2019, 11:05 AM UTC

lqet wrote: post #30

adwww wrote: post #22

When I was last renting (in the UK) I changed my locks the day I moved in, then swapped them back to the original cylinders when I left. I thought it was pretty good practice not to have a door with an unknown number of previous tennants, cleaners, letting agents, landlords etc with access.

Is this legal? At least here in Germany, the apartment owner is allowed to enter your apartment using his key in emergency situations. [0] I can imagine that you can be held liable if, for example, a fire breaks out in your apartment, the apartment owner notices it, tries to enter your apartment to extinguish it, cannot enter because of changed lock, and the building burns down. [0] as others have mentioned below, th…

> At least here in Germany, the apartment owner is allowed to enter your apartment using his key in emergency situations.

This is completely wrong. In Germany the apartment owner is not even allowed to keep a copy of the key unless you voluntarily give them one. I live in Germany and I also changed the lock the day I moved in and the landlord is not allow to forbid me from doing that.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#67

Post by skrause » Fri, May 10, 2019, 11:07 AM UTC

cr1895 wrote: post #52

lqet wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this legal? At least here in Germany, the apartment owner is allowed to enter your apartment using his key in emergency situations. [0] I can imagine that you can be held liable if, for example, a fire breaks out in your apartment, the apartment owner notices it, tries to enter your apartment to extinguish it, cannot enter because of changed lock, and the building burns down. [0] as others have mentioned below, th…

My rental contract in the Netherlands forbids it, but at one time I discussed it with a lawyer and it's not an enforceable clause. Eventually I had to get the lock replaced and I have no intention of giving the property company a key. >the apartment owner notices it, tries to enter your apartment to extinguish it, cannot enter because of changed lock, and the building burns down. The fire department/emergency service…

> Perhaps it's different in Germany.

It's not.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#68

Post by sampo » Fri, May 10, 2019, 11:08 AM UTC

Y_Y wrote: post #5

Most house locks are trivial to pick in about 30 seconds, and what I've seen of "smart" locks isn't much better. I think if you were really serious about preventing intruders (rather than discouraging opportunism) you need alarms and cameras and someone with a big stick.

> Most house locks are trivial to pick in about 30 seconds

Many countries (like US and UK) use pin-tumbler locks that are easy to pick. In some other countries it's common to have much more secure locks such as Abloy Protec series. It takes lots of skill and time to pick these.

In this recent (3 months ago) Reddit post, the guy picks a Protec 2 lock, but he's been practicing with this particular lock and its combination a lot, and he's been a hobbyist for 10 years. In the comments he says than in field conditions with another lock, it might take him an hour.

https://www.reddit.com/r/lockpicking/comments/amjumx/abloy_p...

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#69

Post by mobjack » Fri, May 10, 2019, 11:09 AM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #23

The comments seem to be missing the two key aspects: accessibility and surveillance. The smart lock requires you to have a charged, working smartphone that you can use in order to get into your own apartment. One of the claimants is 93 and lacks the manual dexterity to do that. On top of that, smart locks can report when you enter and exit your home to the landlord; and, if under the landlord control, can provide oth…

In this case the smart lock was just on the front door of the building and people could punch in a code in a keypad as an alternative.

Individual apartments still required a physical key to access.

This is not much different than my old apartment building that required a keyfob to enter the front door, but individual keys for the units.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#70

Post by cr1895 » Fri, May 10, 2019, 11:10 AM UTC

sjtgraham wrote: post #58

_delirium wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's legal in the UK for a tenant to change the locks, and there's also no law requiring them to provide the landlord a copy of the key. You do have to allow the landlord in for certain reasons (like maintenance) with advance notice, but you can do that by just being home and letting them in yourself. However, the letting contract might prohibit it, and I think commonly does. It's not a right of the tenant to be able…

Tenants have common law "exclusive possession" and "right to quiet enjoyment" in a UK residential AST. Landlord's presence must be with tenant's consent, it is trespass and possibly an "unlawful eviction" offence otherwise. Landlord don't even have a right of entry to comply with their own statutory requirements, e.g. gas safety check. The only exception is in an "emergency", e.g. a fire.

>"right to quiet enjoyment"

Ah, yeah I encountered the same in Netherlands. A while back the law changed and some legal liability shifted towards landlords if their tenants were found to be growing cannabis. So my property management company decided that they would do random, unannounced inspections of all their tenants four times per year. Plainly contrary to the authorized, agreed-upon reasons for visits and counter to my right not to be bothered. Cue some unknown to me guy knocking on the door asking to look around. Nope! After I argued with the company a few times and refused them entry they finally stopped pestering me. And I'm not growing cannabis...but neither am I a freshman in a college dorm!