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We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

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Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#491

Post by ginsuown »

downandout wrote: post #487
ginsuown wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The issue here is that this company did not violate PayPal's TOS Untrue. Often the exact breach is legally prohibited from being publicly shared, but if a company is banned, then a TOS breach has happened. There is an unbelievable amount of red tape and compliance within every process, both digital and human, that occurs with regards to money and transactions. Especially in the fintech space, PayPal internally is b…

First, no company is ever “legally prohibited” from telling you what specific section of the TOS they allege that you violated. Second, with regard to PayPal not closing accounts on a whim, it happens literally everyday. See http://www.paypalsucks.com/ and countless other sites like it. Even the BBB lists nearly 8300 complaints against PayPal in the last 3 years - https://www.bbb.org/us/ca/san-jose/profile/payment-pr…

> First, no company is ever “legally prohibited” from telling you what specific section of the TOS they allege that you violated

Again, misplaced assumption and personal opinion. With some circumstances, especially if regulating bodies become involved, a company can be ordered by government to not share any further information with the other party, as well as freeze their funds. And even in the circumstances where that does not occur, I don't think a company is obligated to spell out for you what you violated. Sure, I agree that doesn't always look the best and it can seem like it happened "for no reason", but personally my opinion is that if someone told me I have violated TOS, I can read the few paragraphs for myself and figure it out. And they have over 250 million users, 8300 complaints over 3 years doesn't seem bad, and it looks like most of them were resolved. I get it, money gets people upset, and it's always tempting to see the "big bad corporation" turning its back on the little guy, but I personally feel like it gets blown out of proportion a lot. There's always more to the story... Being in the industry, it just frustrates me when people think these big companies can do whatever they want at will, when really their hands are often tied much more than you think.

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#492

Post by linuxftw »

mcv wrote: post #448
linuxftw wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, you don't call Uber in this case. You immediately call the card issuer and report fraud. In the case of debit charges, reacting quickly is absolutely key. Always pay with a credit card, it's much easier to reverse this kind of stuff versus a debit card. There is literally no good reason to ever use a debit card.

> Always pay with a credit card, it's much easier to reverse this kind of stuff versus a debit card. There is literally no good reason to ever use a debit card. What is a debit card exactly in the US? I'm familiar with US-style credit cards, and find them horrible, expensive and insecure. I normally pay simply with my bank card, and online I prefer to with through iDeal bank transfer. Unfortunately that's not support…

A debit card is tied to a bank acount (or some other account) that has actual funds in it. It's same as a check. Once it's cleared, it's quite difficult to get the funds back.

A credit card is different. If a transaction is submitted for reversal within the allotted time period, the charges are simply reversed.

In the case of a fraudulent debit transaction that gets disputed, your bank has to file a claim with the other bank, and somebody (possibly other than the merchant) is taking a loss. Banks don't like that. Credit card reversals mostly result in the merchants taking the loss, and the banks will usually side with a consumer.

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#493

Post by linuxftw »

mcv wrote: post #490
astura wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Debit cards exist but credit cards are often the better option if you're going to use plastic. The problem with debit cards is because certain transactions aren't instant in the US if there's fraud on your debit card at just the right time then your rent check can bounce, your external transfers are returned, etc, and all that stuff comes with fees and headaches. Credit cards also come with rewards whereas rewards on…

How likely is fraud on your debit card, though? On credit cards, it's trivial, because the number you need to authorise a transaction is prominently displayed on the card and needs to be shared with the merchant, all of which is of course horribly insecure. Bank transaction cards in Netherland, presumably all of Europe, and I would hope the rest of the world, authorise the transaction in a reasonably secure[0] way be…

In the states, most debit cards look exactly like credit cards.

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#494

Post by kemitche »

blunte wrote: post #100
Nextgrid wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m always surprised as to why people are concerned about card details misuse. You are not responsible for card-not-present fraud (without 3D Secure). You can dispute any fraudulent charge with your bank, and I’d bet good money the bank has actually better customer service in that regard compared to PayPal.

As a consumer, I like PayPal because it allows me to shut off a payment stream when I want to. A prime example was when I subscribed to NYTimes, and a few months later wanted to cancel. The only way to cancel was to make a phone call, navigate a phone tree, and wait for an agent. That was absurd, not only because I'm international and find it less convenient to call a US number... but particularly because I signed up…

I know the point of your story was about being able to cancel, and not specifically NYT, but since others might read your anecdote and be turned off of NYT:

NYT has since upgraded to allow managing your subscription online, including upgrade/downgrade/cancellation.

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#495

Post by Gibbon1 »

sethhochberg wrote: post #473
mcv wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Someone should come up with a credit card that has a dynamic hard limit connected to a checking account balance. You mean a regular bank transaction card? Is that not something that exists in the US? I always find the American reliance on credit cards somewhat bizarre. Not having an alternative would explain it, I guess.

This is called a debit card in the US, and almost everyone has them - but the key distinction between a debit card and a credit card is that the debit card is a direct link to your bank. People like using credit cards (or charge cards, like some Amexes) to buffer transactions between the bank and the merchant, so if the merchant screws up there is time to resolve the issue before the credit bill comes due. If a merch…

My solution would be to just ban debt cards and give everyone an EBT card through the post office.

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#496

Post by NewsAware »

astura wrote: post #331
apostacy wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason I don't use virtual credit cards is because they tend to not protect you from first party fraud, only third party fraud. Despite what the banks claim, they usually will NOT prevent recurring payments from being honored. Even if you don't have enough money in your account. (The bank will just collect it from you) I used to use a service called Entropay, which would actually let you pre-pay money into a disp…

>What I want, is to give a merchant a credit card number, pre load that number with $30, have them charge it, and then be completely done with it. This especially makes sense for low stakes low cost recurring monthly payments. I should just be able to stop paying a $5/month fax service that I never use, and have them terminate my service. Banks would never let you do that. Services that used to let you do that have b…

Only available in the US though

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#497

Post by downandout »

ginsuown wrote: post #491
downandout wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, no company is ever “legally prohibited” from telling you what specific section of the TOS they allege that you violated. Second, with regard to PayPal not closing accounts on a whim, it happens literally everyday. See http://www.paypalsucks.com/ and countless other sites like it. Even the BBB lists nearly 8300 complaints against PayPal in the last 3 years - https://www.bbb.org/us/ca/san-jose/profile/payment-pr…

> First, no company is ever “legally prohibited” from telling you what specific section of the TOS they allege that you violated Again, misplaced assumption and personal opinion. With some circumstances, especially if regulating bodies become involved, a company can be ordered by government to not share any further information with the other party, as well as freeze their funds. And even in the circumstances where th…

it just frustrates me when people think these big companies can do whatever they want at will, when really their hands are often tied much more than you think

I know my experiences with them very much fall in the “big company doing whatever it wants at will” category, and I am not alone. Scores of others over the years have wound up as frustrated as you are by these comments in their dealings with PayPal.

especially if regulating bodies become involved, a company can be ordered by government to not share any further information with the other party,

This would apply to an absurdly small percentage of the accounts that PayPal closes on a daily basis.

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#498

Post by downandout »

codezero wrote: post #394
synlatexc wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But failing to do so leads to increased operational costs, as customers contact CS again and again, demanding the rationale. It can also lead to negative press.

It's pretty easy to no longer support someone who is banned. The negative press is usually OK because like in this case, and in many others I've seen on HN, the one complaining is usually in clear violation of stated policy. It's completely reasonable to disagree with and complain about that policy, but they rarely do so explicitly, it drums up more support when the policy violation isn't made a highlight.

What specific violation of stated policy are you referring to?

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#499

Post by mcv »

linuxftw wrote: post #493
mcv wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How likely is fraud on your debit card, though? On credit cards, it's trivial, because the number you need to authorise a transaction is prominently displayed on the card and needs to be shared with the merchant, all of which is of course horribly insecure. Bank transaction cards in Netherland, presumably all of Europe, and I would hope the rest of the world, authorise the transaction in a reasonably secure[0] way be…

In the states, most debit cards look exactly like credit cards.

If they are just as insecure as credit cards, then I can understand they're a poor choice. But why doesn't the US use more secure bank cards?

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#500

Post by HenryBemis »

Pyxl101 wrote: post #464
CodeWriter23 wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please elaborate on the means to prevent unauthorized withdrawals.

If you have someone's bank account number, you can pretty much take money out of it. By default there is no real authorization process by which the account holder is asked to allow the withdrawal. There is just the assumption that people aren't going to commit fraud, or people who commit fraud will be caught. I'm not an expert on this, but I believe there are ways to set up business accounts where money can't be take…

It is more difficult than you describe it. To set up a monthly payment the bank verifies the request (e.g. if you sign such direct debit for the gym or your electricity bill). Every ebamli I ever used has a page with all these direct debit setups and alerts you when a new one is made to bring your attention to it. These also have limits. And a decent bank would scrutinize the direct debit. A gym or Vodafone will fly easier than a direct debit to VodkaPotatoLimited in Russia or China (no offense) when you live in the UK.

As to prevent the overdraft, just ask the bank to NOT have overdraft capacity on your account(s).

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