We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business • Hacker News Board

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#171

Post by atemerev » Thu, May 09, 2019, 1:22 PM UTC

Nextgrid wrote: post #65

jpalomaki wrote: post #58

For me as a customer, having PayPal as payment option increases the propability of purchase. Especially with one-time purchases from small vendors. Reasons: No risk of credit card info misuse (by vendor), I only need username and password and I get certainly at least some kind of receipt for accounting.

I’m always surprised as to why people are concerned about card details misuse. You are not responsible for card-not-present fraud (without 3D Secure). You can dispute any fraudulent charge with your bank, and I’d bet good money the bank has actually better customer service in that regard compared to PayPal.

There are debit and prepaid cards, that can be used online, but disputing fraudulent charges is next to impossible. There are non-US banks, where disputing fraud is extremely difficult and takes months, during which your funds remain blocked. There are many cases where a card wouldn't work because it is from a different country, but PayPal works.

International consumer finance is a mess. Not everybody who shops on the Internet is a US citizen with a credit card account in a first-rate bank. There are other options.

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#172

Post by dTal » Thu, May 09, 2019, 1:22 PM UTC

gumby wrote: post #158

vntok wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frozen, as long as they don't take the money either.

So if a crook steals your money and buries it in the back yard instead of spending it it's not theft?

"...It's not about making money, it's about taking money. Destroying the status quo because the status is not quo."

-- Dr. Horrible

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#173

Post by atemerev » Thu, May 09, 2019, 1:23 PM UTC

nothrabannosir wrote: post #157

isoos wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-US credit or debit card owners are not in that good position wrt. disputes and getting their money back. Most of them charge for disabling the card and sending a new one. Dispute last for months, and are not automatically protecting the customer.

This is the first time I hear about this for UK. The chargeback rules are set by the network , i.e. MasterCard, Visa (sure Amex as well but they are both issuer , acquirer and network so that’s perhaps an unfair example). Is there a different rule set for MC USA vs MC rest of the world? I worked for a fraud detection company in the UK that existed precisely because chargebacks work so well, here. So this is definitel…

Yes, there is a world beyond US and UK. Customer support in, say, France is next to nonexistent compared to US and UK standards. Not to mention non-Western countries (where Visa and MasterCard still work, but the quality of service differs dramatically). I am Russian living in Switzerland, who speaks English and shops at Amazon/US. It creates all sorts of fun.

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#174

Post by jonnycomputer » Thu, May 09, 2019, 1:23 PM UTC

mrosett wrote: post #145

ru999gol wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of horror stories about Paypal, but there is an obvious problem, nobody is going out of their way to write a blog post about how Paypal always worked for them. You can find pretty much the same horror stories about any Bank or credit card company.

Can you point me towards examples of a bank (not the government - a bank) confiscating a company’s account balance?

were assets frozen? I didn't read that.

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#175

Post by good_guy » Thu, May 09, 2019, 1:25 PM UTC

ru999gol wrote: post #119

55555 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And yes, their decision is always final. Perhaps their decision to close your account is always final, but don't lose all hope after having your funds frozen. I had 25-100k frozen (can't remember how much), and picked up the phone and called them and it was unfrozen within 48 hours. Paypal is god-awful though and should be used as little as possible.

There are lots of horror stories about Paypal, but there is an obvious problem, nobody is going out of their way to write a blog post about how Paypal always worked for them. You can find pretty much the same horror stories about any Bank or credit card company.

Yeah, just keep posting things like that till they do that to you account.

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#176

Post by jayalpha » Thu, May 09, 2019, 1:25 PM UTC

Double_a_92 wrote: post #132

blunte wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a consumer, I like PayPal because it allows me to shut off a payment stream when I want to. A prime example was when I subscribed to NYTimes, and a few months later wanted to cancel. The only way to cancel was to make a phone call, navigate a phone tree, and wait for an agent. That was absurd, not only because I'm international and find it less convenient to call a US number... but particularly because I signed up…

Technically you could still owe them that money... Just because you don't pay it doesn't mean that the contract gracefully ends.

You could argue about this. It is also questionable, where the contract was made. New York City? The place where the server is based? The place where the international customer is based? What law should apply? And if a company makes it unreasonable difficult to cancel a subscription then this may be a violation of some laws already. https://www.cnet.com/news/companies-must-let-customers-cance...

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#177

Post by Smirnoff » Thu, May 09, 2019, 1:25 PM UTC

foggyToads wrote: post #166

HenryBemis wrote: post #117

Literally NO ONE wrote the below: Every Friday go online and withdraw all-but-the-necessary £€$$ to your bank account (transfer wire or via card number). I do get some revenue via PayPal, and the very same day (or the next) I 'download' comes it to my bank account (connected to PayPal via card) and IMMEDIATELY is shipped to another account that has all the controls to make money (relatively) unmovable. I perceive Pay…

How does that protect against them erroneously withdrawing large sums from your account and hitting you with overdraft or repeated NSF fees?

His argument wasn't about protecting himself from Paypal's erroneous withdrawals. It's about not letting paypal to freeze his funds at Paypal

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#178

Post by atemerev » Thu, May 09, 2019, 1:26 PM UTC

toss1 wrote: post #167

isoos wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-US credit or debit card owners are not in that good position wrt. disputes and getting their money back. Most of them charge for disabling the card and sending a new one. Dispute last for months, and are not automatically protecting the customer.

Sad to hear that about Non-US card owners. In the US, I've had just the opposite experience. E.g., with AmEx, I had suspicious charges and before I even finished the description the agent interrupted me and said the charge and my card were both already cancelled and new card w/new numbers was already on the way via FedEx. I'm not quite sure what pattern the agent recognized, but she sure didn't like it and they weren…

There are huge culture differences in different parts of the world, and no such thing as "global companies" -- local offices are staffed with locals. US customer support is probably the best in the world, only Japan could be a valid contender here. The rest of us have to suffer.

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#179

Post by bluGill » Thu, May 09, 2019, 1:26 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #152

ru999gol wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of horror stories about Paypal, but there is an obvious problem, nobody is going out of their way to write a blog post about how Paypal always worked for them. You can find pretty much the same horror stories about any Bank or credit card company.

> You can find pretty much the same horror stories about any Bank or credit card company. I don't know if you can in the US, but not in my country. A bank working like paypal would be in trouble, and quickly. Closing accounts without prior notice? Deciding unilaterally to freeze assets? A bank can't do that unless ordered by a judge. If they would, they'll be on the receiving end of a court order and will get a call…

I don't know the exact law in the US, but it is similar.

A bank can freeze your account for suspected fraud, but they will try everything they can to contact you soon after to verify. They know that regulators will come after them if they don't have good customer service around this (plus good customer service can turn this into a customer loyalty win - customers like knowing their bank is watching out for them as long as there is only minor inconvenience).

Bank failure is sometimes a thing though. If the bank fails they probably don't have enough money to give everybody theirs back. You are insured for some amount ($250,000 last I checked) so the average person doesn't need to worry, but if you have more than that in your account you are out of luck. This would be once case where you can't access your money for a few weeks. You should have an emergency account with a second bank just in case - but this is a rare problem. This problem applies to all countries in some way, though the exact way it goes down can change.

I think every other case would be ordered by a judge. Real banks are regulated carefully. People have learned over the years of banking that they can be trouble if they are badly run and taken steps.

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#180

Post by nothrabannosir » Thu, May 09, 2019, 1:26 PM UTC

linuxftw wrote: post #137

raverbashing wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Uber charged $1500 to my debut card a few months ago. There's literally nobody you can call about it. Your bank. You call your bank.

Yeah, you don't call Uber in this case. You immediately call the card issuer and report fraud. In the case of debit charges, reacting quickly is absolutely key. Always pay with a credit card, it's much easier to reverse this kind of stuff versus a debit card. There is literally no good reason to ever use a debit card.

Note: in the UK, advise is to avoid using your CC over 25% of your limit. Apparently this might negatively affect your credit score.

One source: https://monzo.com/blog/2018/08/08/better-credit-score/ , a bank’s blog, but I’ve seen it in other places. Never from the horse’s mouth, though.