Live data from Hacker News

Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

itwire.com

21–30 of 59 posts

Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#21

Everyone seems to be missing an important point here, especially for HN users. Hackers and anyone supporting them are now live bomb targets. Hackers are no longer punished by just putting them in jail. Death is a punishment option too. In the past, they were collateral damage now they are a direct target.

It's my understanding that a hacking incident that principally contributes to injury/death can justify a kinetic response. Hacking incidents with kinetic effects are only rare outliers today, but that could change tomorrow. Kinetic deterrence & reprisal for hacking incidents is a legitimate option, but ripe for significant abuse if allowed without clear attribution of hack and/or link to related kinetic effects. Much…

From the story here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19834802

> They claimed it housed Hamas cyber operatives, which had been engaging in a cyberattack against Israel's "cyberspace."

> "We were ahead of them all the time," said Brigadier General D., the head of the IDF's cyber defense division. "The moment they tried to do something, they failed."

> Israeli officials did not disclose any details about the Hamas cyberattack; however, they said they first stopped the attack online, and only then responded with an air strike.

No details, at all, except that they had already stopped the attack, and from things like "ahead of them all the time", it doesn't exactly sound like they didn't know any other way to prevent injury or death other than to level the building.

> But planning for exceptions is also important.

Just because they killed people doesn't mean that it was an exceptional case that required it, so I would start there.

Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#22

Everyone seems to be missing an important point here, especially for HN users. Hackers and anyone supporting them are now live bomb targets. Hackers are no longer punished by just putting them in jail. Death is a punishment option too. In the past, they were collateral damage now they are a direct target.

In a case like this when you can’t go in and arrest someone who is attacking your country and lives are at stake, there’s not a lot of options besides dropping a bomb on them.

Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's my understanding that a hacking incident that principally contributes to injury/death can justify a kinetic response. Hacking incidents with kinetic effects are only rare outliers today, but that could change tomorrow. Kinetic deterrence & reprisal for hacking incidents is a legitimate option, but ripe for significant abuse if allowed without clear attribution of hack and/or link to related kinetic effects. Much…

From the story here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19834802 > They claimed it housed Hamas cyber operatives, which had been engaging in a cyberattack against Israel's "cyberspace." > "We were ahead of them all the time," said Brigadier General D., the head of the IDF's cyber defense division. "The moment they tried to do something, they failed." > Israeli officials did not disclose any details about the Hamas…

I’m generally pro Israel.

But quite happy to criticise them when and where warranted on specific issues/incidents.

In this case, it certainly sounds like a very serious and incongruent disconnect between the public affairs officer for Cyber and the actual kinetic response.

The Israelis have always been pretty quick to kill or capture not only leadership, but technical talent.

In this case, if I had to guess, there was a rare opportunity to hit apex and/or volume technical talent the IDF justified by the rocket attacks and/or it’s signalling that moving forward insurgent cyber will be considered a valid target for kinetic action.

It’s also worth mentioning that the people targeted may not be hackers, but social media camapigners/influencers.

Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#24
It's pathetic watching people from the safety of their own homes commenting on how Israel should be waging war. Israelis are being killed and if Hamas had their way they would go over the border and massacre all Israelis in sight.

No other democracy is currently fighting a war against a neighbor that's shooting missiles at them and located only a few km from 80% of their population.

Israel's use of kid gloves against the Palestinians just emboldens them and encourages more cycles of violence.

Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#25
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is such a long and convoluted conflict... israel withdrew from gaza in 2005, but kept control of access points, air travel etc making gaza a weird place, partly under israel control. hamas (basically a terrorist org) literally took over gaza from fatah (a nationalist party) in a war in 2007. then you’ve got the islamic jihadis, a bonafide terror org, which started taking over from hamas, in the same gaza strip.…

"this is such a long and convoluted conflict" - Not really, this is just a simple case of settler colonialism, anyone who claims that this is a "complex" conflict is either ignorant or deliberately trying to confuse people. Recommended reading from Theodor Herzl (founding father of zionism) to Noam Chomsky (secular jewish intellectual) for those who are truly interested in the facts: The Jewish State (Der Judenstaat)…

I would hesitate to include Ilan Pappe in that list - his academic career is somewhat controversial.

https://newrepublic.com/article/85344/ilan-pappe-sloppy-dish...

Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#26

It's pathetic watching people from the safety of their own homes commenting on how Israel should be waging war. Israelis are being killed and if Hamas had their way they would go over the border and massacre all Israelis in sight. No other democracy is currently fighting a war against a neighbor that's shooting missiles at them and located only a few km from 80% of their population. Israel's use of kid gloves against…

Poor Israel, can't even dehumanise, colonise a people, drive them out of their homes and kill them without being criticised. You are dishing out the same old washed out propaganda and people know it's utter bullshit. Israel is the coloniser and the oppressor no matter how hard you push your propaganda, people can see the evidence from too many sources now, even secular jewish ones.

Israeli Solider testimony [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkxJd88xkBU]

"The Lobby" - Documentary exposing the vile and venomous smearing tactics of the Israeli lobby (undercover reporter is jewish) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceCOhdgRBoc]

The Jewish State (Der Judenstaat), (1896) [https://archive.org/details/ajewishstateana00aviggoog]

On Palestine - Noam Chomsky [https://www.amazon.com/Palestine-Noam-Chomsky/dp/1608464709/...]

The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe (jewish historian) [https://www.amazon.com/The-Ethnic-Cleansing-of-Palestine/dp/...]

Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#28

It's pathetic watching people from the safety of their own homes commenting on how Israel should be waging war. Israelis are being killed and if Hamas had their way they would go over the border and massacre all Israelis in sight. No other democracy is currently fighting a war against a neighbor that's shooting missiles at them and located only a few km from 80% of their population. Israel's use of kid gloves against…

Poor Israel, can't even dehumanise, colonise a people, drive them out of their homes and kill them without being criticised. You are dishing out the same old washed out propaganda and people know it's utter bullshit. Israel is the coloniser and the oppressor no matter how hard you push your propaganda, people can see the evidence from too many sources now, even secular jewish ones. Israeli Solider testimony [ https:/…

We left Gaza. There are no Israelis left in Gaza. It's not occupied. Now that we can see what happens when we give the Palestinians territory, we won't be doing that again.

Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#29
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is such a long and convoluted conflict... israel withdrew from gaza in 2005, but kept control of access points, air travel etc making gaza a weird place, partly under israel control. hamas (basically a terrorist org) literally took over gaza from fatah (a nationalist party) in a war in 2007. then you’ve got the islamic jihadis, a bonafide terror org, which started taking over from hamas, in the same gaza strip.…

"this is such a long and convoluted conflict" - Not really, this is just a simple case of settler colonialism, anyone who claims that this is a "complex" conflict is either ignorant or deliberately trying to confuse people. Recommended reading from Theodor Herzl (founding father of zionism) to Noam Chomsky (secular jewish intellectual) for those who are truly interested in the facts: The Jewish State (Der Judenstaat)…

Usually people who see things as "simple" when most consider them complex are either extremely smart or extremely shallow. Providing Ilan Pappe as a serious source tells where you are in that range.

Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#30
Am I the only one to see echoes of Cold War stories, with spies and spymasters respecting each other and The Game more than they do their own military personnel...? It’s like Smiley had been told Karla’s office was purposefully bombed.

If humans ever managed to eventually move most or all conflicts to cyber methods, would that make us more civilized? Are we turning war into a game of bits, or are we tainting the networked Utopia with our never-extinguished bestial instincts?

Post reply on HN