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Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#491

Post by scarface74 »

pron wrote: post #487
scarface74 wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So 1% with a “25 year head start”?

I don't know where you're getting the 1% -- in some of those benchmarks it's much higher (and remember that Scala and Kotlin are also Java -- they rely on the same compilers, GCs and monitoring; they just replace the frontend compiler, which is less than 10% of the JDK). Also, the benchmarks are very simple, and hardly exercise the platform's power. And they don't measure other capabilities at all. For example, Go ma…

I was going by his posted benchmark. But correction,I had never heard of Vertx. It was 14% faster.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#492

Post by hnbroseph »

dtech wrote: post #441
hnbroseph wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

llvm is not a vm. describing llvm as something that is replacing the jvm doesn't really make sense. mentioning javascript or webassembly is also a bit strange and would seem to demonstrate some kind of misunderstanding.

In 1995-2005, JVM was a serious competitor for the web, it's why JavaScript was named Java Script.

javascript is named javascript for marketing purposes. your example is an almost stereotypical misunderstanding by people unfamiliar with java.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#493

Post by jeevest »

Are new systems being constructed in Java .. when starting on new projects Java was at one time (about 6-8 years ago) the leading alternative for Corporate IT (if they weren't a Microsoft shop). I doubt it very much.

Oracle is playing this not-so-good role, that Microsoft used to play, under Steve Ballmer, monopolistic, and evil.

I found Java hideous, the gratuitous OOP taken to extremes put me off. Spring came in, and you had class names that were a hundred characters long - your actual line of code was shorter than the class name. The problem with Java (and every programming language has its own achilles heel) - is everything has be class oriented - however much you try to bolt on, on top of that , to make it seem not so. . Java kills creativity, and expressiveness in software by its bloated syntax and OOP. We took up Java because at the time alternatives were few, but now its on its way being the new Cobol - this will sound ridiculous if you still are fully or partially, inside its bubble

I ran from our Java shop. My software architect mocked me "you'll be back in 6 months" - instead, he quit the Java shop and stuck his head outside of the Java bubble and realized there was life outside.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#494

Post by DonHopkins »

DangitBobby wrote: post #319
masklinn wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do not anthropomorphise the lawnmower.

It's not a lawnmower. It's an organization made if people, and it's responsible for it's actions.

Here's the full reference -- the point is that Oracle's a-hole is Larry Ellison:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc

"As you know people, as you learn about things, you realize that these generalizations we have are, virtually to a generalization, false. Well, except for this one, as it turns out. What you think of Oracle, is even truer than you think it is. There has been no entity in human history with less complexity or nuance to it than Oracle. And I gotta say, as someone who has seen that complexity for my entire life, it's very hard to get used to that idea. It's like, 'surely this is more complicated!' but it's like: Wow, this is really simple! This company is very straightforward, in its defense. This company is about one man, his alter-ego, and what he wants to inflict upon humanity -- that's it! ...Ship mediocrity, inflict misery, lie our asses off, screw our customers, and make a whole shitload of money. Yeah... you talk to Oracle, it's like, 'no, we don't fucking make dreams happen -- we make money!' ...You need to think of Larry Ellison the way you think of a lawnmower. You don't anthropomorphize your lawnmower, the lawnmower just mows the lawn, you stick your hand in there and it'll chop it off, the end. You don't think 'oh, the lawnmower hates me' -- lawnmower doesn't give a shit about you, lawnmower can't hate you. Don't anthropomorphize the lawnmower. Don't fall into that trap about Oracle." -- Bryan Cantrill

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#495

Post by kerng »

StevePerkins wrote: post #143
aphexairlines wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right that Java is entrenched in a lot of the enterprise space, but I think you're being quick to dismiss entrants that have gained steam in the last few years. For example, Go is becoming the default in Kubernetes applications. It's eating tech companies that became large in the last few years like Lyft and Uber. It'll spread to other large tech companies like Amazon or IBM with ease. It will possibly get pic…

Seriously, people. K8s is a container orchestration system. Yes, it's written in Go, like Docker itself. DevOps tooling is a niche area where Go has been very successful. But k8s runs whatever you put into your Docker containers. I've seen no indication of it changing which languages people choose to containerize (Node containers probably being way more common than Go ones). If anything, easy containerization negates…

Go is really not a language to recommend for enterprise business applications. It's a niche and will likely stay this way unless they add tons of features, which they have been reluctant to do. Because otherwise they'll end up with Java, or something very similar, is what you end up with.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#496

Post by cheerlessbog »

pjmlp wrote: post #395
cheerlessbog wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.NET Framework is only in Windows, so it's not blocking the porting of any existing library to core.

Why port to Core when many libraries still aren't there? C++/CLI was just one example. ODP.NET, EF 6 UI designers, WCF, WebForms, Forms/WPF UI designers [0], and plenty of component libraries are still not .NET Core compatible. [0] - It remains to be seen if those designers will be shown at BUILD.

WebForms is a super legacy technology, to be fair. How many web API are supported today that originated 17 years ago? There are better uses of resources than to give that new life.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#498

Post by mamon »

solidsnack9000 wrote: post #384
jankassens wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it also be ridiculous if a factory worker would be employed in one country and just cross the border to do a bit of factory work? All kinds of other local laws apply just by entering a country. How is minimum wage different?

Would it also be ridiculous if a factory worker would be employed in one country and just cross the border to do a bit of factory work? It would be ridiculous, because the factory worker would be working at a company domiciled in the other country. That is because, a company in one country can not just open a factory in another country without having an entity in the latter country. Consider an alternative situation:…

Except the stated goal of European Union is free movement of workers. You can literaly go and work in any EU country, no visa or work permission needed.

But that's not really the situation here: it's a business providing services for customers in another country. You send a driver abroad for a few days, that should not make him subject for local tax and labor laws. If you can prove that said worker spent significant period of time there (most tax treaties use 183 days as a rule of thumb) then that's a different matter.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#499

Post by pjmlp »

scarface74 wrote: post #480
pjmlp wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is hard to keep track of all answers, just complains about being stuck in tech X and how .NET has saved your life from whatever. Which yeah, might have been the point, but hardly a picture of the global job market.

You mean it’s hard to keep track, even though you’ve responded to the posts? But if the post is concerning Java wouldn’t it be kinda of silly to bring up C++, C, Python, and JavaScript/TypeScript? What I did say that it was foolish from a long term career perspective not to see where the market is going and stick with a platform that even the vendor said is maintenance mode as far as .Net Framework and Windows Forms…

Just because I responded to all posts doesn't mean I am able to remember everything.

It is also foolish to have senior devs focus on selling themselves as Language X dev, without any other skill to offer.

I would rather have a VB 6 guy on the team that can do proper software architecture design, speaks fluently two European languages across our customer sites and is able weight what really matters across the delivery pipeline, than someone that knows all the cool and latest of .NET Core, without anything else as added value.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#500

Post by pjmlp »

cheerlessbog wrote: post #496
pjmlp wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why port to Core when many libraries still aren't there? C++/CLI was just one example. ODP.NET, EF 6 UI designers, WCF, WebForms, Forms/WPF UI designers [0], and plenty of component libraries are still not .NET Core compatible. [0] - It remains to be seen if those designers will be shown at BUILD.

WebForms is a super legacy technology, to be fair. How many web API are supported today that originated 17 years ago? There are better uses of resources than to give that new life.

Might be, but some customers do pay to keep it alive.
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