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People's sense of control over actions is reduced when angry or afraid: study

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Re: People's sense of control over actions is reduced when angry or afraid: study

#41

Post by WheelsAtLarge »

I've always thought that anger was a direct result of being afraid. When we are afraid we have a number of feelings that are put forth as a result. Depending on why we are afraid we then use anger as a tool to get past the situation.

Also once we feel threaten and afraid we immediately fall into protection mode where our innate behavior is exhibited. You can think of our 4-5-year-old self as a sample. Things like selfishness, anger and doing what we can to get the upper hand, starts to be seen in us.

If you think about it, it takes a lot of years of teaching by society and parents to keeps us from being selfish, angry and whatever basic instincts we have. But even with that, we all fall into those modes when threaten and we are afraid.

Re: People's sense of control over actions is reduced when angry or afraid: study

#42

Post by pistachiopro »

gerbilly wrote: post #39
pistachiopro wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some interesting arguments that we'd be better off not assuming free will. Yuval Noah Harari (of Sapiens fame) talks about it quite a bit. He mentions his stance briefly in this interview https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2018/aug/05/yuval-noah-h... , but he goes into it deeper in his books. One of his main points is that, as neuroscience and AI get better, external actors to you are able to "understand y…

The reason I think we should assume we have free will is a moral one. If you believe you don't have free will, it can be easy to excuse all sorts of behaviour, because it was 'predetermined ' anyway. Sort of like, stealing candy bars from a store then saying, I don't have free will, what can I do? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I agree there would be a large moral shift, and it kind of boggles my mind to try to think about it, but I don't think it's necessarily untenable.

Taking the candy bar example, in current society, even someone who doesn't believe in free will probably won't steal a candy bar, since there's a good chance they'll get caught, and then shamed and fined. There can still be a system of rules without a sense of free will.

The mindset would probably affect every aspect of life, but just looking at criminal justice, my intuition is that we would reduce how retributive it is, and switch to something more rehabilitation focused. Then again, it's hard to imagine what the knock on effects of that would be. I could see it going too far and getting exploited. Still, I'd be happy to see society experiment with moves that direction.

Re: People's sense of control over actions is reduced when angry or afraid: study

#43

Post by bellerose »

gerbilly wrote: post #39
pistachiopro wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some interesting arguments that we'd be better off not assuming free will. Yuval Noah Harari (of Sapiens fame) talks about it quite a bit. He mentions his stance briefly in this interview https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2018/aug/05/yuval-noah-h... , but he goes into it deeper in his books. One of his main points is that, as neuroscience and AI get better, external actors to you are able to "understand y…

The reason I think we should assume we have free will is a moral one. If you believe you don't have free will, it can be easy to excuse all sorts of behaviour, because it was 'predetermined ' anyway. Sort of like, stealing candy bars from a store then saying, I don't have free will, what can I do? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That's the typical assumption that has no statistical evidence and is made by someone who thinks the illusion of free will is good for society. I suggest first try thinking about how people would observe all daily things while understanding free will is an illusion. Also think of the lives that are ruined because of bias to someone who happens to be a minority such as LGBT. Empathy for a minority is created when understanding there is really no choice and how they're born into a reality where they're labeled as not the norm.

Re: People's sense of control over actions is reduced when angry or afraid: study

#45

Post by bellerose »

Quekid5 wrote: post #13
colanderman wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like they had a choice…

Indeed. Even if you don't believe in it at a philosophical level, you don't exactly have any choice in the matter. We all behave as if we have free will -- the only alternative would be to just stop doing anything (e.g. being catatonic).

That's an incorrect assumption because I can look at myself. I understand free will is an illusion and I don't have to stop doing anything.

Re: People's sense of control over actions is reduced when angry or afraid: study

#46

Post by CMCDragonkai »

baybal2 wrote: post #33
steve_adams_86 wrote: post #14

Anger is such an interesting experience in that (if this study is correct) we tend to actually lose agency while angry, but internally I think we actually believe we have dramatically increased agency in the moment. That's part of what makes anger so dangerous. We're basically at maximum stupid while angry. Do you ever get angry and suddenly feel a loss for words? Difficulty articulating arguments? Resorting to less…

In my life, I've suffered 3 robbery attempts, and been stabbed twice. Two times before I turned 17, while I was still living in Russia :-\ I was vehemently opposed to my father's attempts to make me carry a weapon since I was 14. I changed my mind after being stabbed for a second time, much more badly (and that happened the same year.) First time, I was attacked by a gang of homeless orphaned children. It was like th…

Wow where in Russia was this?

Re: People's sense of control over actions is reduced when angry or afraid: study

#48

Post by samllhands »

WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #41

I've always thought that anger was a direct result of being afraid. When we are afraid we have a number of feelings that are put forth as a result. Depending on why we are afraid we then use anger as a tool to get past the situation. Also once we feel threaten and afraid we immediately fall into protection mode where our innate behavior is exhibited. You can think of our 4-5-year-old self as a sample. Things like sel…

russia is indeed a scarey place to live

Re: People's sense of control over actions is reduced when angry or afraid: study

#49

Post by alexpetralia »

steve_adams_86 wrote: post #14

Anger is such an interesting experience in that (if this study is correct) we tend to actually lose agency while angry, but internally I think we actually believe we have dramatically increased agency in the moment. That's part of what makes anger so dangerous. We're basically at maximum stupid while angry. Do you ever get angry and suddenly feel a loss for words? Difficulty articulating arguments? Resorting to less…

I just listened to this podcast episode today: "Robert Sapolsky on the toxic intersection of poverty and stress" (https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/vox/the-ezra-klein-show/e/5...)

It is a fantastic deep-dive into our biology (stress), neurology (amygdala), poverty (status poverty, not financial) and much more

Re: People's sense of control over actions is reduced when angry or afraid: study

#50

Post by maroonblazer »

steve_adams_86 wrote: post #14

Anger is such an interesting experience in that (if this study is correct) we tend to actually lose agency while angry, but internally I think we actually believe we have dramatically increased agency in the moment. That's part of what makes anger so dangerous. We're basically at maximum stupid while angry. Do you ever get angry and suddenly feel a loss for words? Difficulty articulating arguments? Resorting to less…

The corollary to how anger manifests itself in the one who is angry is how it's perceived to the one on the receiving end of the anger. I can't find the reference but I believe it was in Pinker's "The Blank Slate" where he discusses the effect, citing other research.

It boiled down to the fact that because an angry person is not in control of their actions the recipient's theory of mind about the angry person is effectively thrown out the window and thus one can't predict what the angry person might do. Consequently your best bet is to exit the situation as quickly as possible to minimize any risk to yourself or loved ones.

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