Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You never have "real" control over your own actions because free will is an illusion. This is facile, and you certainly haven't proven the absence of free will just bey stating it here. I believe the best assumption, since we feel as though e have free will, is to behave as though we and other people (and animals) have free will. But aside from that, the fine article isn't really saying anything new. It's a known t…
Oh, I thought the article was about psychology and where what we have studied illustrates determinism and where nothing has ever shown free will. I mean even what comes out of neuroscience shows how the brain reacts before we're even aware. Free will is an impossibility, how can oneself make choice or decisions that are unaffected by the external forces exerted upon oneself. One's birth being the "starting point" int…
People's sense of control over actions is reduced when angry or afraid: study
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Re: People's sense of control over actions is reduced when angry or afraid: study
#12What the article actually says is that when people are angry or afraid, they don't believe as strongly that their actions are within their control. This seems like one of those "well, duh" kind of studies, but it's pretty interesting, because it lends credence to the "crime of passion" defense in law.
Re: People's sense of control over actions is reduced when angry or afraid: study
#13Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why even bother trying to explain something to others if free will is an illusion? What are you relying on to persuade them if they don't have a mind capable of understanding you?
It's not like they had a choice…
Re: People's sense of control over actions is reduced when angry or afraid: study
#14As for the ethical aspect... I've dealt with an ill temper my entire life, although not many people who know me would think so. As a kid I was bullied a lot (both of these are likely direct products of me having ADD), and I used to get in a lot of trouble because my reaction was to let my rage boil over and fight these bullies. The best advice anyone ever gave me (Thanks Mr. McAneny) was that we aren't a tool of our anger, but instead, it's a tool of our creation. We're responsible for what we do with our anger, even if we're not the instigators. Anger typically leads to brutal solutions, both emotionally and physically, and it's so rare that this is necessary or remotely helpful. That really stuck with me.
I grew up with so many people telling me to use my anger against the bullies, and I think that reflects our cultural belief (or desire to believe) that our anger is justified, and what we do when we're angry is as well. I believe the truth is that it's almost never the correct response. The adults and peers around me who told me to embrace my anger probably didn't have a good understanding of why they believed that or perpetuated that belief.
All that is to say: We should stop believing in our anger so much, and start being responsible for what we do when we're angry. That seems like the most ethical solution.
Re: People's sense of control over actions is reduced when angry or afraid: study
#15Earlier quoted context omitted.
Oh, I thought the article was about psychology and where what we have studied illustrates determinism and where nothing has ever shown free will. I mean even what comes out of neuroscience shows how the brain reacts before we're even aware. Free will is an impossibility, how can oneself make choice or decisions that are unaffected by the external forces exerted upon oneself. One's birth being the "starting point" int…
You might be interested in Daniel Dennett’s thoughts on the matter, if you aren’t already familiar with him.
Re: People's sense of control over actions is reduced when angry or afraid: study
#16Anger is such an interesting experience in that (if this study is correct) we tend to actually lose agency while angry, but internally I think we actually believe we have dramatically increased agency in the moment. That's part of what makes anger so dangerous. We're basically at maximum stupid while angry. Do you ever get angry and suddenly feel a loss for words? Difficulty articulating arguments? Resorting to less…
Clearly, any emotion when taken to the extreme is bad, and anger is perhaps the most obvious example -- yet I would hesitate to call its existence useless, even in a modern context. Anger & pride both have functions as "alarm systems" for circumstances which would be detrimental to certain things we value.
EDIT: I now realize that your original comment was not presenting such a black-and-white view of the subject as I originally perceived. Keeping my comment above in tact for historical purposes
Re: People's sense of control over actions is reduced when angry or afraid: study
#17Anger is such an interesting experience in that (if this study is correct) we tend to actually lose agency while angry, but internally I think we actually believe we have dramatically increased agency in the moment. That's part of what makes anger so dangerous. We're basically at maximum stupid while angry. Do you ever get angry and suddenly feel a loss for words? Difficulty articulating arguments? Resorting to less…
i've come to settle on a mental model of fear being the driver of anger. when someone gets angry, a (perceived) threat typically underlies the anger. and anger is a way of overcoming conventional social norms to unleash energy to counter the threat.
sometimes the threat is simply to the ego of the angered person. this helps me understand my own anger, which can be confounding at times.
Re: People's sense of control over actions is reduced when angry or afraid: study
#18Anger is such an interesting experience in that (if this study is correct) we tend to actually lose agency while angry, but internally I think we actually believe we have dramatically increased agency in the moment. That's part of what makes anger so dangerous. We're basically at maximum stupid while angry. Do you ever get angry and suddenly feel a loss for words? Difficulty articulating arguments? Resorting to less…
Ive read some of the book "The Art of Empathy", in which the author describes anger as "the prideful sentry." I like this way of thinking about it. Clearly, any emotion when taken to the extreme is bad, and anger is perhaps the most obvious example -- yet I would hesitate to call its existence useless, even in a modern context. Anger & pride both have functions as "alarm systems" for circumstances which would be detr…
The same can even be said for attraction which can lead to crazy infatuation, or the desire to relax which can lead to chronically getting nothing done. Mostly these are very positive thoughts and feelings in moderation, so it's also difficult to observe and reconsider in the moment. Fear and anger are very important as well, but the product of both can be devastating when unregulated.
This is hard to teach to kids. I have kids, and one of them actually gets angry far too easily - maybe even more than I did as a kid. Trying to explain the idea of being responsible for what his anger leads to feels like a Sisyphean task at times. It's so important to me though to have them understand that ultimately, they decide how they react to what happens to them or around them. And of course the same applies to all those other feelings. People are complicated.
Re: People's sense of control over actions is reduced when angry or afraid: study
#19> I am never here …. Never that is fully in possession, but somehow in a position to forestall ill-advised moves…. Patrolling is, in fact, my principal occupation….. No matter how tight Security, I am always somewhere Outside giving orders and Inside this strait jacket of jelly that gives and stretches but always reforms ahead of every movement, thought, impulse, stamped with the seal of alien inspection….
http://www.madnessandliterature.org/literature.php?id=26&res...
The "alien inspection" reference is about Scientology, I think.
Re: People's sense of control over actions is reduced when angry or afraid: study
#20I am surprised at this line defense (not a lawyer, of course).
At the risk of creating a falsely binary division, either we are (at least most of the time) responsible adults or we are not. If we are, then we are responsible for our actions - even if our faculties are temporarily impaired, at least by virtue of actions we took. For example, driving while under the influence.
If we are not, then why do we have other privileges, such as voting, being able to care for children, etc?
Of course, there are middle grounds of various kinds and the law must find and work with these. Any sort of diminished capacity defence, e.g., by virtue of illness (e.g., depression), by virtue of mental disability, etc.
It seems to me that these middle grounds arise because there are discernible pathologies that give rise to diminished capacity. That seems reasonable.
Where the UK defence seems odd, seems to fly in the face of responsibility, is that there is no pathology. Someone got angry and lost control.
But anger is a choice. With the possible exception of the immature, of the previously mentioned disabled, and of cases involving actual physical contact (where someone isn't respecting your boundaries and your expressed wish that they back off), we choose anger as our response. It can be very hard to control this choice, but we are choosing to allow anger to rise.
Once we make that choice, we are responsible for what comes next. IM(NS)HO. YMMV. IANAL. Etc.