Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE • Hacker News Board

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#271

Post by erik_seaberg » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:04 PM UTC

repolfx wrote: post #154

dtech wrote: post #78

> And the idea that corporate developers or even frankly any developers are switching to LLVM and WebAssembly en masse is pretty ridiculous. There is only 1 popular language released since 2009 that targets JVM: Kotlin. All other target JS, their own bytecode or LLVM: Go, Rust, Dart, Elixer, Julia, Typescript, Swift. This is a significant difference from 2003-2009 languages which all targeted JVM unless they were Mic…

And who uses Dart? Elixir? Julia? Hardly anyone. Lots of attempts but also lots of failures, sometimes due to poor runtimes or libraries. Swift is iOS/Apple specific, at least in usage. But mobile is dominated by Android, which is moving towards Kotlin. So Kotlin is already huge right there, much larger than Dart or Elixir and probably larger than Swift, soon if not already. Meanwhile Go would probably benefit from t…

> stuck in its own isolated world with low quality tools, libraries and GCs

"Go needs a native library for ___" is used as an opportunity for safely tedious résumé-driven development. On the JVM you'd have to look for an unsolved problem which is probably harder.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#272

Post by fuck_google » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:05 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #116

threeseed wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't be serious. JVM is still the best platform for any type of back-end application. It has the widest array of libraries, is proven to run on any type of hardware and comes standard on every OS and every cloud instance. .Net is a great platform and all but it still hasn't done enough to really merit switching teams. Especially when you have Scala, Kotlin, Clojure etc to pick from.

Java doesn’t come standard on Windows, MacOS, or iOS. It’s also not standard on Windows based EC2 instances. But even if it does come “standard” on Linux. How many people actually count on the installed instances of runtimes and don’t install their own tested versions? For instance, Python 2.7 comes on a Windows EC2 AWS instance.

Windows based EC2 instances represent maybe 10 % of all EC2 instances.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#273

Post by edwinyzh » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:06 PM UTC

vfc1 wrote: post #23

The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. I have the impression that a lot of the mindshare has switched to the Node and Javascript ecosystem, especially the frontend devs, via the Typescript / Angular path, which is a natural path to Java developers due to the comfort given by familiar concepts like static types, classes, etc. When I used to do Java, I always found…

As a Delphi developer this is the first time I heard about Java is dying, and in a reply the other one said that some is saying so for over a decade :D

And I think Java is more alive then Delphi, at least no one is setting up a site like http://www.isdelphidead.com/ :D

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#274

Post by TeMPOraL » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:06 PM UTC

icegreentea2 wrote: post #265

lkrubner wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony is that Poland was once the #1 or #2 power in Europe, but they were destroyed by unanimous voting. Want to raise taxes to build an army to repel foreign invasion? Everyone agrees, except that one person too far from Russia to care, and the taxes get vetoed, so Russia wins, thus Poland was destroyed. The Poles know how dangerous unanimity is.

Which instance are you referring to?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberum_veto

What I remember from history lessons in school agrees with Wikipedia's description, so I'll just quote:

"Many historians hold that the liberum veto was a major cause of the deterioration of the Commonwealth political system, particularly in the 18th century, when foreign powers bribed Sejm members to paralyze its proceedings, and the Commonwealth's eventual destruction in the partitions of Poland and foreign occupation, dominance and manipulation of Poland for the next 200 years or so. Piotr Stefan Wandycz wrote that the "liberum veto had become the sinister symbol of old Polish anarchy". In the period of 1573–1763, about 150 sejms were held, about a third failing to pass any legislation, mostly because of the liberum veto."

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#275

Post by im3w1l » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:06 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #242

pjmlp wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has such a wonderful cross-platform GUI.

There are no “wonderful” cross platform GUIs and that been true for over two decades.

Electron

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#276

Post by sasavilic » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:07 PM UTC

perlgeek wrote: post #222

threeseed wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strange attitude to take when you can just target OpenJDK and then it is completely irrelevant what Oracle does or does not do. The fact is that every single one of the largest companies has some Java or Scala code within their core platform. And none of them have ever raised Oracle as a risk.

What's the relationship between OpenJDK and Oracle, exactly? As somebody who's not deep in the Java ecosystem, the precise relationship is not clear to me, but it does seem that Oracle is a major contributor to OpenJDK at least, most likely also involved with the project steering.

AFAIK, Oracle's own JDK is being built from OpenJDK source and they work on OpenJDK source directly. The only difference is that there is no official LTS of OpenJDK by Oracle. You have to either keep upgrading to newer OpenJDK (with potential breaking changes) or pay Oracle license to use their LTS JDK

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#277

Post by rbanffy » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:12 PM UTC

empthought wrote: post #127

evgen wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By using Python they were able to ship, which is why you have heard of Reddit and they were able to grow enough to have a concurrency problem (something Python still sucks at); the number of sites of any significance that started by using Java for page delivery is probably somewhere around 0.

Oh cmon, LinkedIn started with Java.

And even after this long it doesn't work quite right.

It's a miracle they shipped it at all.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#278

Post by rbanffy » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:14 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #86

evgen wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By using Python they were able to ship, which is why you have heard of Reddit and they were able to grow enough to have a concurrency problem (something Python still sucks at); the number of sites of any significance that started by using Java for page delivery is probably somewhere around 0.

They would be able to ship in any language, that is what software engineering is all about.

True, but would they be able to ship within the window they could become relevant? Would they be able to add the required features?

You can ship your own clone of Reddit next week, with blazingly fast code, running on two tiny VMs and supporting more load than Reddit, but would it be successful?

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#279

Post by rbanffy » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:19 PM UTC

Redoubts wrote: post #252

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure Python 3 has had better performance since 3.5 or so?

I still see benchmarks from bilingual projects which show py2 being faster, such as http://falconframework.org/#sectionBenchmarks

YMMV. The benchmark you mentioned used 3.6.

https://hackernoon.com/which-is-the-fastest-version-of-pytho... has a benchmark that includes 3.7.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#280

Post by mamon » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:23 PM UTC

bitL wrote: post #147

dtech wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it's more a lesson about how unanimous votes, or unanimous - N can become problematic. In the EU the same is happening. Poland and Hungary have found a loophole allowing them to ignore EU rules and sanctions while still profiting from subsidies and market access. All sanctions against a member state require unanimous-1 (all states except the sanctioned member) votes and Poland is vetoing all sanctions against…

> Poland and Hungary have found a loophole allowing them to ignore EU rules and sanctions while still profiting from subsidies and market access AFAIK this was tit-for-tat: HU & PL closed/sold-off their industry in favor of WEU in exchange for subsidies. Removing these subsidies for any reason would violate the main economic agreement between them and EU. Mind you, there is no significant locally grown industry in th…

Adding to that: one of the fundamental EU rules was freedom to do bussiness anywhere in EU. That worked in favor of Western countries which had their corporations opening offices in Poland, and making huge profits here.

After some time Poland found some niches for itself, e.g. Polish transportation companies dominate EU market in truck freight. What was the EU response to that? They recently passed change in labor laws, that would make this business unprofitable.

So: common EU market is fine as long as Western countries benefit from it, but Poland or other Eastern countries making money from business in the West is against the rules :)