500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app • Hacker News Board

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#141

Post by swimfar » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:12 PM UTC

bigred100 wrote: post #105

Anyone else feel like language learning is overrated? (Yes I’m an uncultured provincial American and I’m sorry). Unless you frequently travel somewhere where another language is spoken, have family that speaks another language, or want to travel places like that, it’s hard for me to see why learning more about your own language, math or something, socializing, learning about how your government and society work, or s…

As someone who has learned multiple foreign languages, I agree. I think everyone should spend a year or two learning a foreign language, like is done in many schools in the US. But beyond that the cost/reward ratio isn't worth it for everyone. If it's not something that you enjoy learning, and you don't expect to be exposed to a specific language, your time might be better spent focusing on other areas.

I don't think you get that much exposure to another culture just by learning their language, if you aren't also interacting with that other culture. I'm not saying that you don't learn anything, just that it's a very inefficient way of broadening your perspectives. For most people it takes a lot of effort to get to the point where you can have meaningful conversations in a foreign language. And if you speak English fluently, it can be a battle sometimes getting people to speak their language with you when they want to practice English or don't want to deal with non-native speakers of their language. So even I sometimes I feel like learning the language provided little practical use.

If someone has the opportunity to learn a language and then live in that country for a little while, I believe that is a very worthwhile experience. But it's not something that everyone has the opportunity to do.

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#142

Post by supuun » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:13 PM UTC

akg_67 wrote: post #90

LanceH wrote: post #24

I'm using Duolingo to learn my 4th language. My previously recent language was studied in the early 90's, for perspective. Currently, I'm taking on Japanese. Becoming fluent with this app (or any other single app) is going to be just impossible. In isolation it will be a haphazard collection of phrases picked up at a glacial pace. The pluses to Duo are huge, though. What some see as repetition to gain master on a min…

Duolingo is not good for learning East Asian languages. For Japanese, it is particularly bad. Try LingoDeer instead.

Yeah, but second version of the japanese tree is coming this may and I hope it will be much better

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#143

Post by usaar333 » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:13 PM UTC

bit_logic wrote: post #119

Learning a language requires immersion. That's why classes with other students are more effective than flashcards. VR has potential to really make a difference here. Imagine you load a VR level. It's a busy outdoor market in Taipei. In your inventory you have some cash. NPCs with AI and chat logic are around you interacting. Your goal is to buy some bread and get to the subway. You see a vendor with some bread, but d…

Agreed on immersion being critical.

You also for languages distant from ones you know really need a teacher (which is a problem with Duolingo), at least to break into the elementary levels.

> You speak the words, but the vendor doesn't understand. Your tones are off.

The immersion is critical to having repetitive practice and exposure, but few adults (at least I'm not one) will get this far (that is being capable of extending knowledge via immersion) without the initial aid of a teacher. e.g. Learning to hear/speak sounds that don't exist in your native language requires both extensive instruction and feedback more detailed than just "I don't understand".

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#144

Post by Jerry2 » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:16 PM UTC

This is purely anecdotal but I think it could be how most people will experience language study.

On my last flight from Japan, I sat next to a 20-something couple who spent a week in Japan. They told me they had a great time but they had problems trying to communicate. While most Japanese know a bit of English, they wanted to converse in Japanese and had incredibly hard time. Both of them spent 5 months studying Japanese on Duolingo on their phones and thought they had a decent grasp if language so they were surprised when they couldn't understand Japanese native speakers and couldn't speak it well enough for natives to understand them.

I never even heard of Duolingo before this experience and after trying ti myself for an hour, I can think of a half-a-dozen better ways to spend 5 months studying Japanese than to do work for Duolingo.

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#145

Post by lawnchair » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:17 PM UTC

bit_logic wrote: post #119

Learning a language requires immersion. That's why classes with other students are more effective than flashcards. VR has potential to really make a difference here. Imagine you load a VR level. It's a busy outdoor market in Taipei. In your inventory you have some cash. NPCs with AI and chat logic are around you interacting. Your goal is to buy some bread and get to the subway. You see a vendor with some bread, but d…

I really wish this VR existed. Would be great.

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#146

Post by adventured » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:17 PM UTC

dawnerd wrote: post #130

duncan-donuts wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds amazing. I used Duolingo for about a year to learn Swedish. I got pretty good at reading it and hearing it, but never could speak it very well. Had I decided to learn French or Spanish I’d have a lot more opportunity to talk with other people, but I picked Swedish because it seemed interesting and easy for an English native to pick up. I would totally buy a VR rig just to do this.

Literally did the same last year with Swedish. Kind of amazing how easy it was to pick up vs French.

What kind of a time investment did it require on a day to day basis? In the last few weeks I've been eyeing Babbel and Duolingo as good options to get started learning a particular language.

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#147

Post by mediascreen » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:22 PM UTC

bigred100 wrote: post #105

Anyone else feel like language learning is overrated? (Yes I’m an uncultured provincial American and I’m sorry). Unless you frequently travel somewhere where another language is spoken, have family that speaks another language, or want to travel places like that, it’s hard for me to see why learning more about your own language, math or something, socializing, learning about how your government and society work, or s…

> Unless you frequently travel somewhere where another language is spoken, have family that speaks another language, or want to travel places like that [...]

As someone who has studied a handfull of languages and have no talent for language learning I would agree. If you have no connection to the language and no desire to travel to a place where it's spoken, it would be like any other hobby. But if you want to get to know a culture in depth or work in another country it's pretty much mandatory.

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#148

Post by usaar333 » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:23 PM UTC

gibba999 wrote: post #140

bit_logic wrote: post #119

Learning a language requires immersion. That's why classes with other students are more effective than flashcards. VR has potential to really make a difference here. Imagine you load a VR level. It's a busy outdoor market in Taipei. In your inventory you have some cash. NPCs with AI and chat logic are around you interacting. Your goal is to buy some bread and get to the subway. You see a vendor with some bread, but d…

I found the article to be BS. My experience: 1) Classes with other students are just about the least effective way to learn a foreign language. You just reinforce each others' bad accents, grammar mistakes, etc. 2) Duolingo is okay for some things, but not for others. But discounting all apps after having tried one or two, though, is a lot like the famous Gates quote: "640k should be enough for anybody" (which he cla…

> Classes with other students are just about the least effective way to learn a foreign language.

Well, sure a private tutor is better, but that's a lot more expensive.

Without a teacher of some sort that can provide feedback, I have no idea how I could have learned elementary Mandarin (that is produce and listen to sounds radically different from my native English).

From what I've seen the ability for computers to give feedback on what you are doing wrong is far away from a trained human's.

> The Pimsleur model could take you all the way to fluency,

I've been looking over their website - it seems like it is just audio lessons and no tutor is provided? If that is correct, how would someone learn to correctly pronounce words in say Mandarin using this?

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#149

Post by dkural » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:24 PM UTC

bigred100 wrote: post #105

Anyone else feel like language learning is overrated? (Yes I’m an uncultured provincial American and I’m sorry). Unless you frequently travel somewhere where another language is spoken, have family that speaks another language, or want to travel places like that, it’s hard for me to see why learning more about your own language, math or something, socializing, learning about how your government and society work, or s…

Raw reality and experience is organized in subtly different ways in a different language, in a way that can't quite be fully translated "to learn about" to your native language. It is a bit like just reading about basketball in a book without ever playing any basketball or even watching an NBA game.. I am actually on the opposite side: I'm bilingual, but never truly mastered a third language, and always wondered if I'd feel it is "marginal" or would feel like an entire new world would open up like it did with a second language. I've spent a lot of time studying mathematics and I also feel like that substantially feels like learning an alien language to talk about space and structure.

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#150

Post by jonplackett » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:38 PM UTC

Michel Thomas is, in my humble opinion, having been crap at languages though school and having tried many alternatives THE MOST AMAZING THING EVER.

If you have a logical brain (as I suspect many HN readers do) and like to know how and WHY the language works as it does. And be able to make sentences from day 0. Try it. It’s amazing. And he’s also an amazing dude. Check him out on Wikipedia. Ex-french resistance. Tried to bring the world together with language. Recorded each CD in one take just from memory. A true legend.