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Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#101
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kotlin is owned by JetBrains not Google. Yes but there's a lot of efforts from Google to support the language as well since now it's the new Android language.

Android supports Java, Kotlin and C++. Kotlin is just one option more, and the tooling is still not mature as Java. Specially in compile speed, incremental compilation, debugging, speed in type completion, FFI.

I would not put C++ with the other ones, unfortunately Android has a lot of API only available from Java.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#102
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except when all developers already know C, which is really what you want, seeing how no one ever rises above their level of C proficiency in any other imperative language.

Given the CVE database, all hope is lost if those programmers can never rise about their level of C profency.

Hmm? I'm not saying all C programmers are good, or even that people should prefer C for production code. I'm claiming that if you're bad at C programming, you're not going to be not-bad at programming some other "higher" imperative language.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#103
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GPL is not usable for any small company which doesn't want to publish its own sources. What can be used only using BSD, MIT, Apache licenses? And what from the GPL-licensed products is safe to use to produce and sell own closed source products (e.g. where the exception to GPL exists for just linking the libraries or similar)? Edit1: Long term dangers/costs of depending on the technologies that need commercial license…

> GPL is not usable for any small company which doesn't want to publish its own sources. Maybe I'm missing something, but AFAIU you have to publish any changes to that library, not your sources.

There are different levels of what’s allowed for different GPL based licenses. To use a library as a library with another license a GPL library exception has to exist for the library etc. If you step on only one of such mines your whole product has to be GPL-ed.

It the context of my questions here, and as an example, my guess is that I can't use graalvm to produce a binary which I can sell without either open sourcing everything I've made or paying too much to Oracle. But I don't know for sure and for each of the mentioned technologies, that's why I'm asking very specific questions.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#104
post #23

The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. I have the impression that a lot of the mindshare has switched to the Node and Javascript ecosystem, especially the frontend devs, via the Typescript / Angular path, which is a natural path to Java developers due to the comfort given by familiar concepts like static types, classes, etc. When I used to do Java, I always found…

Please remember that such viewpoints tend to be very subjective and depend a lot on your environment. Where I am (geographically, company wise and ecosystem) Java and the Java ecosystem are very much thriving.

I wouldn't say that for Java EE.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#105
post #23

The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. I have the impression that a lot of the mindshare has switched to the Node and Javascript ecosystem, especially the frontend devs, via the Typescript / Angular path, which is a natural path to Java developers due to the comfort given by familiar concepts like static types, classes, etc. When I used to do Java, I always found…

Spring is compliant with and reliant on many of the JavaEE specifications - JDBC, Servlet, JAX-RS, etc. It provides DI that is not JavaEEs CDI.

I'd consider Spring as more of a non-JavaEE application server. Pick either Spring or Wildfly/Glassfish/Websphere/etc and you're either using part of the JavaEE specification with the former or the full specification with the latter.

Avoiding JavaEE for micro-services requires moving to something like DropWizard. Instead of a 200MB application server you end up with a 20MB application. Unfortunately, running that application in a Docker container will spin up a 180MB JVM. So the main reason we're moving away from JavaEE is actually more related to our move to container orchestration and that was originally driven by our adoption of micro-services. If you write a micro-service with a single end-point why should it use 500MB of memory?

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#106
post #6

Oracle never fails to show off how evil they are.

While there is some truth to it,they did more research for Java than Sun ever did, and no one else cared to buy Sun.

They did research not because they want to support Java community, but because they want to make gains from making it proprietary.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#107
post #52
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working in the JVM world I'm always surprised to hear that its dying, the JVM and Java moves faster forward than ever, Graal is about to go 1.0, a bunch of very interesting (very) low latency GCs are in the pipe (for example ZGC and Shenandoah) and lots of other interesting projects like Valhalla promise to keep the JVM relevant for the next 20 years. Oracle have made some moves to monetize on parts of its investment…

Too little too late, and I highly doubt that (5-year-old) Valhalla will deliver even one of the promised features (value types) in the next 3 years. Remember that the original plan was to have all Valhalla features in Java 10. Java/JVM was in the ideal position to dominate the software world for the whole 21th century 15 years ago. Instead they did an IE6 and stagnated for so long that their competitors became plain…

> webassembly [is] eating JVM's cake

It's hard for me to take all the "Java is dying" threads seriously when they don't even seem to understand where Java plays. Webassembly? Really? That's a client-side tech, and 99.999% of Java devs ceded the browser battleground pre-9/11.

Java's bread and butter is EAI, ETL, and server-side business application development. Particularly with pieces requiring heavily distributed design. Node might pick away at some of the lowest-hanging fruit (e.g. JavaScript webdevs writing their own REST endpoints to fetch user settings from the database). But most of that crowd doesn't understand what the terms "EAI" or "ETL" even mean. Hell, most of that crowd has never had the experience of working for a company that turns a profit. The next major downturn will be interesting to watch...

And JavaScript is the only JVM-alternative to take seriously at all. Hype trains come and go for Rust, .NET Core, Go, etc. But they never really gain serious traction beyond a non-Java niche area, and/or devolve into endless arguments about generics or whatever.

I've seen zero actual encroachment into anything that earns me money for the past 10 years now, and at this point I'll probably be retired before I have to worry about it.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when OpenJDK is preinstalled on Windows?

... and iOS? And I’ve only done upgrades, but I don’t believe any JVM is preinstalled on MacOS.

Last time I used MacOS, it prompted me to install Java and then it did the install. I was in the Terminal, I am not sure what the interaction would look like if I had double-clicked a JAR file.

I believe Apple donated their customizations (Swing L&F, launcher code, etc.) to OpenJDK.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#109
I bet Oracle will have its MS pivot moment, sooner that we think, to face AWS, PostgreSQL, IBM/Red Hat, Pivotal Spring offers...

But it was a lot of time wasted:

Apache Harmony/Java

LibreOffice/OpenOffice

MariaDB/MySQL

Jenkins/Hudson

now Eclipse/Java

Right now, they are in sales hurry mode, calling at all occasions technical contacts each time you create a new account to download something on their web site...

...

https://netbeans.apache.org/

https://cloud.oracle.com/containers/kubernetes-engine

...

In O/WebLogic, javax.* imports are by default private.

Open9J vs Graal

https://github.com/eclipse/omr/issues/1118

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