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Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#51

Post by threeseed »

bborud wrote: post #41

Oracle makes Java a risk factor in all projects. I stopped approving new Java projects in my team 2 years ago after we switched to Go. This wasn’t a decision we took lightly and it took almost a decade for me to be comfortable with leaving Java behind. But it is the right thing to do. Oracle is not trustworthy.

Strange attitude to take when you can just target OpenJDK and then it is completely irrelevant what Oracle does or does not do.

The fact is that every single one of the largest companies has some Java or Scala code within their core platform. And none of them have ever raised Oracle as a risk.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#52

Post by dtech »

_lbaq wrote: post #29
vfc1 wrote: post #23

The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. I have the impression that a lot of the mindshare has switched to the Node and Javascript ecosystem, especially the frontend devs, via the Typescript / Angular path, which is a natural path to Java developers due to the comfort given by familiar concepts like static types, classes, etc. When I used to do Java, I always found…

Working in the JVM world I'm always surprised to hear that its dying, the JVM and Java moves faster forward than ever, Graal is about to go 1.0, a bunch of very interesting (very) low latency GCs are in the pipe (for example ZGC and Shenandoah) and lots of other interesting projects like Valhalla promise to keep the JVM relevant for the next 20 years. Oracle have made some moves to monetize on parts of its investment…

Too little too late, and I highly doubt that (5-year-old) Valhalla will deliver even one of the promised features (value types) in the next 3 years. Remember that the original plan was to have all Valhalla features in Java 10.

Java/JVM was in the ideal position to dominate the software world for the whole 21th century 15 years ago. Instead they did an IE6 and stagnated for so long that their competitors became plain better.

I'd say Java/JVM is now where IE was in 2008. Still massive majority market share, but in decline because people are switching to competitors. LLVM and webassembly are eating JVM's cake, and a multitude of languages like Kotlin, C#, Go, Rust and even Javascript and Python are chipping away at Java's market share.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#54

Post by _lbaq »

acqq wrote: post #35
_lbaq wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working in the JVM world I'm always surprised to hear that its dying, the JVM and Java moves faster forward than ever, Graal is about to go 1.0, a bunch of very interesting (very) low latency GCs are in the pipe (for example ZGC and Shenandoah) and lots of other interesting projects like Valhalla promise to keep the JVM relevant for the next 20 years. Oracle have made some moves to monetize on parts of its investment…

> Working in the JVM world I'm always surprised to hear that its dying So how is this "JVM world" escaping the grip of Oracle? E.g. graalvm is directly Oracle's, or am I missing something? Specifically, what is preventing any of the Java-related things people use now (including those that you mention) to end like the OP is describing? Asking as somebody outside of that world, but interested "how much it's worth consi…

Graal Community Edition is licensed under GPL, there is a Enterprise Edition that has additional features that is licensed differently.

OpenJDK does not need commercial licensing, but Oracle JDK which is built from OpenJDK needs.

Then there are plenty of other vendors to chose from if you absolutely does not want to interact with Oracle.

IBM and now Eclipse foundation OpenJ9 is a very interesting TCK compliant JVM, then you have Azul Systems that innovates a lot with Zulu/Zing.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#55

Post by nosianu »

mhuffman wrote: post #43
pjmlp wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A language that requires C for anything regarding performance is only useful for scripting and learning to program.

I mean, what do you think the Java VM is written in?

You understand the the language your platform is written in and the language you as a developer write programs for the platform in are two completely different things?

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#56

Post by realusername »

pjmlp wrote: post #50
realusername wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not go as far to say it's dying but it's heavily slowing down for sure. First because of the big move out of the "entreprise" software and secondly because of Oracle legal team. It's definitely due to the licensing that Android is switching to Kotlin for example.

Except that Kotlin still lags behind Java compiler speed and it is heavily dependent on Java libraries.

All of these are technical issues which will be solved by Google eventually, I'm not worrying much about that, they definitely have the resources to make it work.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#57

Post by threeseed »

acqq wrote: post #35
_lbaq wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working in the JVM world I'm always surprised to hear that its dying, the JVM and Java moves faster forward than ever, Graal is about to go 1.0, a bunch of very interesting (very) low latency GCs are in the pipe (for example ZGC and Shenandoah) and lots of other interesting projects like Valhalla promise to keep the JVM relevant for the next 20 years. Oracle have made some moves to monetize on parts of its investment…

> Working in the JVM world I'm always surprised to hear that its dying So how is this "JVM world" escaping the grip of Oracle? E.g. graalvm is directly Oracle's, or am I missing something? Specifically, what is preventing any of the Java-related things people use now (including those that you mention) to end like the OP is describing? Asking as somebody outside of that world, but interested "how much it's worth consi…

OpenJDK is an open distribution and preinstalled on all major operating systems and is now the standard JVM for most developers. We even have open distributions of it e.g. Amazon Coretto.

GraalVM isn't even at version 1.0 so nothing at all to worry about.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#58

Post by craigsmansion »

threeseed wrote: post #45
rbanffy wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's real-world Python. Why do you think stuff like SciPy are so popular?

So real-world Python is: Two languages to learn. Two languages to support. Two development environments. Two build tools. Two CI/CD pipelines. Two testing infrastructure. Two sets of code and security reviews. Double the complexity and for what exactly ?

Except when all developers already know C, which is really what you want, seeing how no one ever rises above their level of C proficiency in any other imperative language.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#59

Post by james_s_tayler »

dtech wrote: post #32
mjw1007 wrote: post #10

« Oracle already started a blocking politics at the Eclipse Foundation’s board, where Oracle has a seat, and where unanimous decisions are needed. Oracle now has the power, and apparently will use that power, to block the foundation’s future. It demonstrated that power already in a board meeting, where they had the sole vote against an otherwise unaimous move. » I hope other organisations with a director from Oracle…

For me it's more a lesson about how unanimous votes, or unanimous - N can become problematic. In the EU the same is happening. Poland and Hungary have found a loophole allowing them to ignore EU rules and sanctions while still profiting from subsidies and market access. All sanctions against a member state require unanimous-1 (all states except the sanctioned member) votes and Poland is vetoing all sanctions against…

Yeah unanimous is ironic in that actually a single actor controls the outcome.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#60

Post by _lbaq »

dtech wrote: post #52
_lbaq wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working in the JVM world I'm always surprised to hear that its dying, the JVM and Java moves faster forward than ever, Graal is about to go 1.0, a bunch of very interesting (very) low latency GCs are in the pipe (for example ZGC and Shenandoah) and lots of other interesting projects like Valhalla promise to keep the JVM relevant for the next 20 years. Oracle have made some moves to monetize on parts of its investment…

Too little too late, and I highly doubt that (5-year-old) Valhalla will deliver even one of the promised features (value types) in the next 3 years. Remember that the original plan was to have all Valhalla features in Java 10. Java/JVM was in the ideal position to dominate the software world for the whole 21th century 15 years ago. Instead they did an IE6 and stagnated for so long that their competitors became plain…

Kotlin is a JVM language, sold as a better Java, and the JVM is really the thing that is the echo system gathers around, not necessarily the language Java.

Other interesting languages you have on the JVM is Scala (multi-paradigm), Clojure (Lisp), EtaLang (Haskell)

- https://eta-lang.org

- https://www.scala-lang.org

- https://kotlinlang.org

- https://clojure.org

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