Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#491

Post by ummonk » Sat, May 04, 2019, 3:18 AM UTC

soulofmischief wrote: post #147

ummonk wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that argument, every car with cruise control (i.e. almost all of them) has autopilot. Clearly, with their naming of their system as autopilot rather than cruise control, Tesla is trying to imply that autopilot means something more. Namely, it means the driver / pilot can offload the work of routine driving / flying to the computer, only intervening in certain times (e.g. off0highway or takeoff / landing) or in the…

Do you understand the difference between going in a straight line and going at a consistent speed? Cruise control only enables the latter.

So Tesla autopilot is superior to cruise control because it keeps you going in a straight line, and that's totally a feature car consumers need?

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#492

Post by Erlich_Bachman » Sat, May 04, 2019, 8:04 AM UTC

Ntrails wrote: post #489

sytelus wrote: post #254

Tesla's blog post: https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/update-last-week’s-accident the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision. The driver had about five seconds and 150 meters of unobstructed view of the concrete divider Looks like sensors failed to see concrete divider in nice sunny weather and car slammed in to it at 70mph. Driver was obviously over confident on system's a…

> Companies need to aggressively enforce, both hands on steering until self-driving is really really really good. Hands on the wheel is such a stupid metric. Two hands on the wheel whilst watching a film on an ipad doesn't do a damned thing. What matters is whether I'm paying attention, a much harder to measure metric. Am I looking at the road, judging distances, hazards, etc. I say this every time autopilots come up…

Chrysler/Cadillan has eye tracking - seems like exactly the thing you want. While it is in automatic driving mode, it tracks your eyes and if you are not looking at the road for an extended period of time, warnings are issued.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#493

Post by lordnacho » Sat, May 04, 2019, 8:47 AM UTC

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #480

lordnacho wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funnily enough I hadn't actually considered it. I guess because I was considering it from the outside.

Thank you for admitting that. In light of this new context, has your thinking around this subject changed?

Well at the time I wasn't really making any moral judgements, just thinking of it as a statistical problem.

Of course Tesla and any other firm that releases stats to prove a point need to do so honestly. And they would have made the exact same considerations that I listed. So yeah, they should have released more representative stats.

I'm sure the PR people don't know anything about stats though, plus they would want to pick whatever they think makes the company look good.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#494

Post by natch » Tue, May 07, 2019, 12:44 AM UTC

rohit2412 wrote: post #255

unityByFreedom wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to define solved. Used in the Musk sense, it is solved because it's possible. Used in the academic sense, it's not as reliable as depth from LiDAR.

This is the Crux of the problem. Elon musk and Tesla are happy to use words with misleading meaning deliberately. Autopilot, full self driving, "solved", safer than a human driver etc.

There's nothing wrong with using words. The real key is to understand carefully the context in which the words were used.

The "misleading" accusation is just a projection people like you are imagining after cherry picking words without paying attention to the context.

The words you are missing are things like: "will be," "in the future," "it is possible," "assuming regulatory approval," etc.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#495

Post by breck » Tue, May 07, 2019, 11:04 PM UTC

salawat wrote: post #417

breck wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no fundamental law that requires neural networks be hard to understand. In fact debugging and interpreting neural networks is a very active area of research and getting easier everyday. In twenty years I would not be surprised if tools are so good, due to economic forces, that it's easier to understand why a neural network made a decision than it is to understand why some complex hand written conditionals pro…

That still doesn't solve the problem. Nodes X, Y, and Z reached action potential tells us nada useful about useful about the NN. It's not a question of not being able to run the code in debug; we can absolutely do that. It's a question of the outcome only being dependent on a seemingly random set of numbers which no one can really reason from. That's the issue. With teenagers, we at least have the ability to structur…

> It's not a question of not being able to run the code in debug; we can absolutely do that.

Don't think of debugging/stepping through neural network code using the same tools as stepping through procedural code. In the future you'll have better visual tools that show you a lot of information about the state of the network at once, rather than just the contents of a few registers that you see with a modern debugger.