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60 days in jail for not paying a $2.75 subway fare costs the city $22,000

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Re: 60 days in jail for not paying a $2.75 subway fare costs the city $22,000

#41

Post by newfriend »

cardamomo wrote: post #29
cellis wrote: post #20

That $22000 amounts to good wages for everyone involved, though. A lot of people eating off the taxpayer for that one arrest, so less incentive to "fix" the problem. It's only a problem to the taxpayer, and to the taxpayer, it's worth it to stick it to that guy who jumped the fare even if it costs tons of money because it's unfair ( I paid, you didn't ). This is pretty fundamental human psychology.

It most certainly does not amount to good wages for the person who is in jail for not paying a $2.75 fare. Their 60 days in jail will have long-lasting implications on their livelihood for the rest of their life. There are grave "collateral consequences" we must consider. (Read https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2512920 for more on what this looks like.)

Then they should have thought about that before they decided to commit a crime. Life is about choices and consequences, and being overly permissive with those who have no qualms about breaking the law leads to a sick society where those who do actually follow the law are the ones who suffer.

Re: 60 days in jail for not paying a $2.75 subway fare costs the city $22,000

#42

Post by gabelevi »

Tsubasachan wrote: post #17

Putting someone in jail for breaking the law isn't about costs. Besides before you know it nobody pays for their ticket and then what? This is a nice deterrent for any other sad sack who thinks he is above the rules.

Well this deterrent isn't really working. Fare evasion is currently a big problem for the MTA (http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/mta-fare-evasion-one-...)

It's also not clear to me that it is ethical to have a punishment be far more extreme than a crime. Sending someone to jail for 40 days for stealing $2.75 seems a little extreme. That could easily turn a poor person with a job into a homeless person with no job.

A fine feels more appropriate. Maybe free rides for those who legitimately can't afford the fare.

Re: 60 days in jail for not paying a $2.75 subway fare costs the city $22,000

#43

Post by free652 »

zaroth wrote: post #39
free652 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it didn't cost $22,000. If he didn't go to a jail would the city save $22k? The city lost $215,000,000 in revenue due to the fare evasion.

And if they handed out $50 tickets for fare evasion, how much revenue would that generate?

It's already a $100 fine:

http://web.mta.info/nyct/rules/TransitAdjudicationBureau/rul...

Re: 60 days in jail for not paying a $2.75 subway fare costs the city $22,000

#44

Post by NarcolepticFrog »

This seems to be an unfair comparison to me. The penalty for not paying the fare is not meant to somehow recuperate the lost cost - instead, the penalty is there to incentivize people to pay the regular fare, rather than skipping it. The real question to ask is: if the penalty were reduced, how much more money would be lost due to the increased number of people not paying the subway fare? I don't see a good way to answer this question, but it seems to be the right comparison to me.

Re: 60 days in jail for not paying a $2.75 subway fare costs the city $22,000

#45

Post by bdcravens »

zaroth wrote: post #39
free652 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it didn't cost $22,000. If he didn't go to a jail would the city save $22k? The city lost $215,000,000 in revenue due to the fare evasion.

And if they handed out $50 tickets for fare evasion, how much revenue would that generate?

You almost always have the option of going to jail to pay fines, typically at $50-100/day served.

Was on the train here in Houston yesterday, and this very topic came up as some folks were chatting with a transit officer onboard. Some said they'd always sit in jail rather than pay a fine.

Re: 60 days in jail for not paying a $2.75 subway fare costs the city $22,000

#46

Post by ummonk »

ram_rar wrote: post #23

Can someone explain it to me, why in SF its treated as a minor ticket similar to overdue parking meters as apposed to NYC where people are jailed for not having a valid ticket ? Never thought NYC could be soo ridiculous.

This wasn't a case of not having a valid ticket. This was a case of turnstile jumping. There is a big difference in intent there.

Re: 60 days in jail for not paying a $2.75 subway fare costs the city $22,000

#47

Post by jakelazaroff »

unqueued wrote: post #36
jameskilton wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This line of thinking has two serious problem: it assumes that people 1) Actually intentionally break the law as a choice and 2) Actually think about the consequences of their actions And to a lesser extent, this ignores the subset of circumstances where people forget to pay, actually do pay but the payment gets lost, or can't afford to pay but need to get places. This is why 3-strike rules are abject failures (life…

If we just stopped enforcing the laws, the damage to our society would be incalculable. Is it worth it to prosecute petty thefts for less than $100? If not, then we are giving the green light to that kind of crime. What incentive would you have to run a small business selling things if the state won't enforce the law? > This line of thinking has two serious problem: it assumes that people 1) Actually intentionally br…

I don't think GP is saying we shouldn't enforce laws that don't make sense economically. Rather, if all it takes to follow the law is pay $2.75, and people break it over 200,000 times per day, maybe it's time to reevaluate whether the law and consequences are effective?

Re: 60 days in jail for not paying a $2.75 subway fare costs the city $22,000

#48

Post by zaroth »

free652 wrote: post #43
zaroth wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if they handed out $50 tickets for fare evasion, how much revenue would that generate?

It's already a $100 fine: http://web.mta.info/nyct/rules/TransitAdjudicationBureau/rul...

NYC.gov says 14,000 summons ($100 fine) in Q4.

Who knows what percentage of those are paid.

But relative to the size of the problem that’s a pittance.

Re: 60 days in jail for not paying a $2.75 subway fare costs the city $22,000

#49

Post by fredophile »

jrockway wrote: post #26

We should just make the subway free. $2.75 doesn't come close to covering the cost of the ride, so why add a regressive tax on what amounts to a basic need?

I like this idea but think it has some practical problems. The money needs to come from somewhere. Normally I'd say just move it to some other form of existing taxation like income tax or property taxes. However, a reasonably large portion of regular subway users are people that live in New Jersey but commute to work in New York. You'd probably need to figure out a way to get money from these people as well. Potentially this could be done with some added fees on Ferries and other transit options between New Jersey and New York but it would require some thought and planning.

Re: 60 days in jail for not paying a $2.75 subway fare costs the city $22,000

#50

Post by k_sh »

everdev wrote: post #13

I'd imagine the cost of arrests and incarceration are sunk costs though. It's not like we pay the police $2,000 for each arrest, or pay the prison $500/night per inmate. Does anyone know if these numbers were taken by adding up the costs of running a prison and police department and dividing by the number of arrests and inmates? If so, it's a little disingenuous to make this argument. Also, these cases are not about…

> It's not like we pay the police $2,000 for each arrest

Not in a direct sense - but civil asset forfeiture and arrest/citation quotas do incentivize individual officers to take actions that benefit their department's budget and their annual review, respectively.

> It's not like we [...] pay the prison $500/night per inmate

In the case of private prisons (which house 8% of the US prison population[0]), a per-prisoner stipend is the most popular[1] business model.

The government quite literally pays the prison company a fixed dollar amount per inmate-night, which the company then turns a profit on.

[0]: https://reason.org/wp-content/uploads/files/comparing_correc...

[1]: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/062215/busin...

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