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60 days in jail for not paying a $2.75 subway fare costs the city $22,000

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Re: 60 days in jail for not paying a $2.75 subway fare costs the city $22,000

#11

Post by uxp100 »

"I could demonstrate to you that every single bank robbery, that in every single case practically, the cost of the police was more than the actual money that the robbers took from the bank. Does that mean, 'Oh, you see, there's really no economic interest involved, then. They're not protecting the banks. The police are just doing this because they're on a power trip, or they're macho, or they're control freaks, that's why they do it.' No, of course it's an economic... of course they're defending the banks. Of course, because if they didn't stop that bank robbery, regardless of the cost, this could jeopardize the entire banking system." -- Michael Parenti

Despite quoting that I'm not a hardcore leftist (anymore). But I think it's an insightful quote, and does at least explain why certain crimes are handled the way they are. That being said, this simply shouldn't be a criminal matter, and should be handled more similarly to overdue parking meters, as some say in the twitter comments.

(Also, that quote is out of context, it is itself serving as an example to explain the (lack of) roi for american interventionism in South America. And yes I used to listen to a lot of Choking Victim)

Re: 60 days in jail for not paying a $2.75 subway fare costs the city $22,000

#12

Post by jameskilton »

brianpgordon wrote: post #8

I don't know enough to take a position on this issue one way or another, but I think it should be pointed out that expensive jail time for a few people could serve as a deterrent that results in enough increased fare revenue to offset the cost.

This line of thinking has two serious problem: it assumes that people

1) Actually intentionally break the law as a choice and 2) Actually think about the consequences of their actions

And to a lesser extent, this ignores the subset of circumstances where people forget to pay, actually do pay but the payment gets lost, or can't afford to pay but need to get places.

This is why 3-strike rules are abject failures (life in prison for stealing a slice of pizza?). Crime and punishment are enormously complicated and the "obvious" solutions almost never actually work.

Re: 60 days in jail for not paying a $2.75 subway fare costs the city $22,000

#13

Post by everdev »

I'd imagine the cost of arrests and incarceration are sunk costs though.

It's not like we pay the police $2,000 for each arrest, or pay the prison $500/night per inmate.

Does anyone know if these numbers were taken by adding up the costs of running a prison and police department and dividing by the number of arrests and inmates?

If so, it's a little disingenuous to make this argument.

Also, these cases are not about a 1:1 relationship of harm to society vs. cost of justice. If you let the crimes go, you'll have more people doing it because "everybody does it".

60 days in jail does seem pretty excessive though. If imagine tons of young kids or people in a rush would make a silly mistake.

Re: 60 days in jail for not paying a $2.75 subway fare costs the city $22,000

#15

Post by Taniwha »

everdev wrote: post #13

I'd imagine the cost of arrests and incarceration are sunk costs though. It's not like we pay the police $2,000 for each arrest, or pay the prison $500/night per inmate. Does anyone know if these numbers were taken by adding up the costs of running a prison and police department and dividing by the number of arrests and inmates? If so, it's a little disingenuous to make this argument. Also, these cases are not about…

but if we didn't arrest all those people we wouldn't need as many police or as much prison space .... they're not sunk, just costs that can go away over time if you don't need to pay them

Re: 60 days in jail for not paying a $2.75 subway fare costs the city $22,000

#16

Post by everdev »

CharlesColeman wrote: post #9
eastbayjake wrote: post #2

It costs $500/night to jail someone in NYC? You could put them in a room at the Four Seasons for less than that.

> It costs $500/night to jail someone in NYC? You could put them in a room at the Four Seasons for less than that. But then there'd be no-one stopping them from leaving. Also the minibar and room-service charges would make the Four Seasons stay far more expensive. I'm sure the jail cost includes all meals.

Hyatt with an ankle bracelet?

/s

Re: 60 days in jail for not paying a $2.75 subway fare costs the city $22,000

#18

Post by bargl »

Tsubasachan wrote: post #17

Putting someone in jail for breaking the law isn't about costs. Besides before you know it nobody pays for their ticket and then what? This is a nice deterrent for any other sad sack who thinks he is above the rules.

Why not fine them instead?

Before you say, not everyone can afford XYZ fine. I would fully support a income based proportional fine system in the US.

What i Don't support is putting someone in jail because they can't afford a lawyer.

Re: 60 days in jail for not paying a $2.75 subway fare costs the city $22,000

#19

Post by delecti »

brianpgordon wrote: post #8

I don't know enough to take a position on this issue one way or another, but I think it should be pointed out that expensive jail time for a few people could serve as a deterrent that results in enough increased fare revenue to offset the cost.

It's generally the case that a significant chance of being caught is a much bigger deterrent than a significant punishment if you are caught.

https://nij.gov/five-things/pages/deterrence.aspx

Re: 60 days in jail for not paying a $2.75 subway fare costs the city $22,000

#20

Post by cellis »

That $22000 amounts to good wages for everyone involved, though. A lot of people eating off the taxpayer for that one arrest, so less incentive to "fix" the problem. It's only a problem to the taxpayer, and to the taxpayer, it's worth it to stick it to that guy who jumped the fare even if it costs tons of money because it's unfair ( I paid, you didn't ). This is pretty fundamental human psychology.
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