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In search of a truce in the autism wars

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Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#71
post #27
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's completely untrue that "no one who has the ability to not be autistic, would choose to be"; plenty of autistic people are happy to be the way they are and would not want to change. (Pedantic note 1: If you're super-duper-literal about what you said, and take it to refer only to people who actually have the ability not to autistic, rather than speculating on what would happen if autistic people had the ability no…

> plenty of autistic people are happy to be the way they are and would not want to change. How can you objectively claim to prefer autism over non-autism if you've never experienced the latter? It's like me being completely content with my mechanical Ford Mustang and refusing to switch to a computerized car on the grounds that I'm happy with my Mustang and it's impossible for me to imagine what driving a computerized…

You can prefer X over Y if you have (or reasonably think you have) good reason to think that X suits you better than Y would. That can happen without experiencing both X and Y. I'm pretty sure I'd prefer to have $1M more than I do, even though that's not a situation I've yet been in. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to work as a hairdresser, even though I've never done that.

I could be wrong -- it might be that hairdressing would suit me much better than I think, or that having the extra money would lead me to make decisions (earlier retirement? moving to a larger house? a generally spendier lifestyle?) that would be bad for me. But I have, or think I have, a pretty decent idea of how my life would be different if I were a hairdresser or $1M richer, and I can compare that against how things are now and make a reasonable guess at whether the change would be an improvement.

It doesn't need to be a matter of X being objectively better than Y. Would I like to be obsessively interested in fashion, celebrity gossip, and sport? Nope, I'm happy being a geeky intellectual type. It's entirely possible that those other folks are happier than I am (for the avoidance of doubt, I genuinely mean that and can think of some fairly plausible mechanisms that might make it so); but I'm used to being the way I am and have no wish to change in that way, and it would be a big upheaval in my life if I did.

Would I prefer to be autistic? Nope, I think it would be a nuisance and in any case I've grown used to being how I am. But I can (or at least I think I can) imagine being autistic and feeling much the same way about becoming not-autistic as I now feel about becoming autistic.

Severe autism is a big disadvantage in life and I think it's defensible to say that even if some severely autistic people wouldn't want to change that's a mistake on their part. But there's a whole spectrum, and over at the not-so-severe end any shift has both advantages and disadvantages, and I think it's very reasonable for someone to say that they wouldn't want to give up the advantages to get rid of the disadvantages, and that in any case autism is part of who and what they are and taking it away would mean taking them away and replacing them with someone else.

Incidentally, I think it's also perfectly reasonable to say "I like the car I'm driving now; I've had it for years and grown accustomed to its foibles; it's nice of you to offer me that extremely different car with a bunch of features this one doesn't have, but they don't sound very useful to me. I'll stick with the one I know I like, thanks." Someone who says that might turn out to be "wrong" in the sense that if you gave them the new car they'd eventually be glad you did, but so what?

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#72

There is no genuine debate to be had. No one who has the ability to not be autistic, would choose to be. This is yet another example of how our toxic modern culture turns everything into an "identity". Some people are less healthy than others. That's potentially sad, potentially not a big deal. Neither way is there any excuse for this faketroversy.

You speak of toxic modern culture while telling people they should not appreciate being who they are...

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#73
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant that people on the spectrum can come across as cruel or abusive or hurt others without intention to and regardless of what they feel inside. That is not about signals only. I mean the impact on others is there. Unintentional, but real. Then it leads to retaliation which in misunderstood and whole thing may lead to escalations and at worst bullying. That is more then inconvenience.

Retaliation is a strategic last resort that is intended to deter cruel people from hurting us, when appeals to empathy are expected to be ineffective. If someone hurts you accidentally, and you can tell (because he can reliably express empathy), you won't retaliate; you'll ask for an apology. If someone hurts you out of cruelty , expecting an apology is actually counterproductive; you'll either get the authorities in…

That was a problem for me in childhood.

The teachers just didn't get that I had a right to be free of harassment. They didn't punish the harassers, but they did punish me when I fought back. So they were implicit in the harassment and this was a deadly part of the curriculum.

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#74
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is relevant to what people would choose, lacking that experience, how exactly? Because that was the topic being discussed ...

Presumably in this hypothetical situation where you can "cure" autism, you can also "uncure" autism. My point is that austistic people who choose to deliberately stay autistic without experiencing what it is like to be non-autistic are making a biased choice (likely rooted in fear of the unknown). The objective course of action is to experience being non-autistic for a few years before deciding whether you actually l…

And the objective course of action for any neurotypical person is to spend a few years autistic. I imagine you'll be first in line to sign up, given your penchant for objectivity.

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#75
Part of the problem is given the "spectrum" you can have people from wide ranges (and their supporters, caregivers, detractors) all talking about their truth and getting up in arms when people advocate solutions globally that wouldn't apply on their side.

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want 1D, project that vector onto social functioning axis.

That's not 1D either. What is "social functioning"? Making eye contact while speaking? Refraining from stimming? Respecting social boundaries? Figuring out when it's time to move on from discussing the merits of various Yu-Gi-Oh! cards? Knowing how to take public transportation?

How about a probability of ending up broke and with no work? I don't say that we don't need nuanced ways of dealing with each other. But you need 1D measure to compare incompatible decisions.

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#77

We’re probably all better off because some people have autism. I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s an evolutionary explanation for its prevalence. However, there are so many consequences to being “abnormal” that most neurotypicals would refuse to be reincarnated as autistic if given the choice. If you have autism, the traits conferred by the condition have become part of your identity. You very well may not see it as…

> Do we have nothing better to do than judge others?

You just related a story where you sat and judged two people for over an hour! You tell us why you did it if you want to know why people do it!

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#78

There is no genuine debate to be had. No one who has the ability to not be autistic, would choose to be. This is yet another example of how our toxic modern culture turns everything into an "identity". Some people are less healthy than others. That's potentially sad, potentially not a big deal. Neither way is there any excuse for this faketroversy.

> No one who has the ability to not be autistic, would choose to be.

Bullshit.

Don't you dare presume to speak for people other than yourself, or people whose position on the subject has been explicitly disclosed to you. You do not get to extrapolate from that to speaking for anyone else, let alone everyone else.

EDIT: Yes, I am taking the parent comment utterly literally. In context, I think that's appropriate.

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#79
The intersection of disability and identity has a huge number of consequences. Some of them are beneficial, in the creation of communities, support structures, and the like. Some of them are harmful, like the aggressively anti-medicine activities of some communities who see the advance of science threatening the future existence of their identity.

Autism is right on the edge of this phenomena, as it's a disorder that arguably isn't a disorder and its harmful effects mostly attributable to society's reaction. I would argue it still counts as a disorder in the same way a hypothetical condition which prevented someone from speaking Spanish is only harmful if the person lives in a certain type of culture (Spanish-speaking) is still a disorder.

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m going to guess gossip to that degree isn’t just an American thing. I’m 100% with you, though. My oldest daughter is autistic. She’s an amazing little kiddo, and I’m super proud of her. Her therapy has really helped her, but I’m worried for her. Society is going to black ball her and it’s fucking stupid. The parents are the worst too. My daughter has been friends with a handful of kids since she was 2, and, after…

so what should they do? explain how they should think about inviting your kid to events that they might worry would be too much? It's an awkward conversation for them to have too. What is the consideration? is this different for every autistic kid?

What they should do is invite the person and the person can decide if it’s too much for them. In this case, my wife and I are perfectly capable deciding if she’s not going to handle it well. If she was older she would be perfectly capable of deciding if she can handle it or not. The thing that makes me the most upset is that the person having the party decides that it’s too much for another person, and then acts like they’re doing you a favor. Don’t take the decision away from the person.
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