In search of a truce in the autism wars • Hacker News Board

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#41

Post by Spooky23 » Thu, May 02, 2019, 9:21 PM UTC

_Microft wrote: post #30

There's an observation I made a while ago: pretty much all people that I heard stating that they are "on the spectrum" were americans. Why is that? I never checked but I would be surprised if the prevalence is higher than in other western countries. So what is it? Is it better diagnosed or just wrong (wrong diagnosis, self-diagnosis, pidgeonholing bc it's cool to be non-average,...), or maybe there is an issue that p…

It’s a hot diagnosis to get IEPs, and attracts a lot of attention in media. (Extra school services) That has made it part of the vernacular.

It sucks for parents and adults with more serious spectrum disorders as getting the help you need is subject to constraints and schools try to push kids out who start to do well.

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#42

Post by duncan-donuts » Thu, May 02, 2019, 9:22 PM UTC

keenmaster wrote: post #17

We’re probably all better off because some people have autism. I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s an evolutionary explanation for its prevalence. However, there are so many consequences to being “abnormal” that most neurotypicals would refuse to be reincarnated as autistic if given the choice. If you have autism, the traits conferred by the condition have become part of your identity. You very well may not see it as…

I’m going to guess gossip to that degree isn’t just an American thing. I’m 100% with you, though. My oldest daughter is autistic. She’s an amazing little kiddo, and I’m super proud of her. Her therapy has really helped her, but I’m worried for her. Society is going to black ball her and it’s fucking stupid. The parents are the worst too. My daughter has been friends with a handful of kids since she was 2, and, after her diagnosis, she started not getting invited to parties and other gatherings “because we don’t want to cause her stress”. Any parent reading this that decides to not invite a kid because they’re autistic — here’s a big fuck you. Don’t try to pretend you’re doing my kid a favor.

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#43

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC » Thu, May 02, 2019, 9:25 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #33

fwip wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you objectively claim to prefer non-autism over autism?

I can't; the only way to have objective preference is by experiencing both for the same period of time before choosing

Which is relevant to what people would choose, lacking that experience, how exactly? Because that was the topic being discussed ...

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#44

Post by microtherion » Thu, May 02, 2019, 9:27 PM UTC

msla wrote: post #12

DiseasedBadger wrote: post #2

There is no genuine debate to be had. No one who has the ability to not be autistic, would choose to be. This is yet another example of how our toxic modern culture turns everything into an "identity". Some people are less healthy than others. That's potentially sad, potentially not a big deal. Neither way is there any excuse for this faketroversy.

Echoing nicoburns: We really, really need to do something the DSM seems dead-set against, which is distinguishing between fine gradations of autism, and realizing that not making those distinctions results in people talking past each other. For example, why are some people so afraid of autism? Is it bigotry against people like me who stim every so often and avoid eye contact? No, it's fear of a condition which leaves…

> distinguishing between fine gradations of autism

I'm not sure how useful that would be. It's hard enough to agree on a diagnosis of autism at all. Agreeing on finer gradations would be all but impossible.

And I'm concerned that "gradations" would lead people to think of autism as a 1D scale, when, as I'm sure you'd agree, it is anything but! Each individual experiences autism related challenges (stimming, difficulty in social interactions, sensitivity to noises, intellectual disabilities, mutism) to different degrees (and, as the article point out, these also vary day to day), and they also receive autism related talents (superior memory and ability to focus) to different degrees. And all of these are not all that correlated with each other. You'd need a 20 dimensional vector to truly establish "gradations".

Instead, it might make more sense to establish for each individual in what, if any, areas of life they need possible assistance.

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#45

Post by Jesus_Jones » Thu, May 02, 2019, 9:28 PM UTC

duncan-donuts wrote: post #42

keenmaster wrote: post #17

We’re probably all better off because some people have autism. I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s an evolutionary explanation for its prevalence. However, there are so many consequences to being “abnormal” that most neurotypicals would refuse to be reincarnated as autistic if given the choice. If you have autism, the traits conferred by the condition have become part of your identity. You very well may not see it as…

I’m going to guess gossip to that degree isn’t just an American thing. I’m 100% with you, though. My oldest daughter is autistic. She’s an amazing little kiddo, and I’m super proud of her. Her therapy has really helped her, but I’m worried for her. Society is going to black ball her and it’s fucking stupid. The parents are the worst too. My daughter has been friends with a handful of kids since she was 2, and, after…

so what should they do? explain how they should think about inviting your kid to events that they might worry would be too much? It's an awkward conversation for them to have too. What is the consideration? is this different for every autistic kid?

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#46

Post by boomlinde » Thu, May 02, 2019, 9:28 PM UTC

DiseasedBadger wrote: post #22

DiseasedBadger wrote: post #2

There is no genuine debate to be had. No one who has the ability to not be autistic, would choose to be. This is yet another example of how our toxic modern culture turns everything into an "identity". Some people are less healthy than others. That's potentially sad, potentially not a big deal. Neither way is there any excuse for this faketroversy.

I don't know if it's kosher to respond to one's own comment, but I didn't see an option to edit. So I'll just say this: I choose that phrasing for a reason. Because I know that some people choose beliefs based on how hurtful an idea might be, not on it's logical merits. There is no link between how a person irreparably in a given situation, describes that situation, and how anyone not in it, regards it. Almost every…

Maybe there is no real debate because none of your input to the discussion so far constitutes a reasoned argument. You have presented no evidence to your support your conclusions, yet you've written paragraphs of vapid fluff as if that somehow validates your opinion as fact. Feels before reals, indeed.

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#47

Post by alexandercrohde » Thu, May 02, 2019, 9:29 PM UTC

Well we need both.

I believe there already is research as to whether or not autism is best understood as a medical condition (e.g. correlation with stress disorders, physical disorders, etc).

There is no reason we can't acknowledge "Hey we should find out the biological/environmental reason this is happening" while also not patronizing the people whom it pertains to.

Same for any form of attention deficit, depression, other involuntary but mostly benign deviances.

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#48

Post by PeterisP » Thu, May 02, 2019, 9:29 PM UTC

geofft wrote: post #31

Madmallard wrote: post #15

Theres loads of research linking autism with metabolic dysfunction. It is not a state of health.

Hm, https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/clinical-research-metaboli... argues otherwise. Also, would you say that I'm not in a state of health because I'm allergic to nuts?

> would you say that I'm not in a state of health because I'm allergic to nuts?

Yes, definitely - wouldn't you? It's a flawed behavior of the body that causes disadvantages, for some people it's life threatening, so it's definitely a health issue; If that would be easily and permanently curable without side effects, then it would and should be cured en masse as a common healthcare procedure.

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#49

Post by geofft » Thu, May 02, 2019, 9:32 PM UTC

PeterisP wrote: post #48

geofft wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm, https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/clinical-research-metaboli... argues otherwise. Also, would you say that I'm not in a state of health because I'm allergic to nuts?

> would you say that I'm not in a state of health because I'm allergic to nuts? Yes, definitely - wouldn't you? It's a flawed behavior of the body that causes disadvantages, for some people it's life threatening, so it's definitely a health issue; If that would be easily and permanently curable without side effects, then it would and should be cured en masse as a common healthcare procedure.

I agree with that description, but is the conclusion that I'm permanently unhealthy? And is that a useful definition—isn't everyone permanently unhealthy in one way or another?

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#50

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC » Thu, May 02, 2019, 9:34 PM UTC

0815test wrote: post #24

watwut wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One problem is that the lack of ability to express empathy oftentimes come across as cruelty. Not always, but quite often.

Well, there are quite a few people who lack empathy to such an extreme extent as to be quite cruel to others. We all want to avoid these people, so we expect those we interact with to express strong empathy-signals, and distrust them if they won't. It's absolutely normal for autists to be inconvenienced by this, since - their empathy-ceilings being lower, as a rule - they have to pay a higher personal cost than most…

I think it shouldn't go unmentioned that at the same time, the reliance on those signals is a huge vulnerability that is massively being abused by manipulators? I guess you could say that is how authoritarian leaders get into power. So, it's not so obvious it's actually a useful mechanism. Rather, it seems that it maybe works better in small structures and/or for short time horizons, but regularly leads to catastrophic failures in the long run/in larger groups.