Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#451

Post by lordnacho » Thu, May 02, 2019, 1:57 PM UTC

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #427

lordnacho wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are indeed statistical issues with the comparison, but I'm not sure it's the one you're pointing out. There's probably enough Tesla miles being driven that we shouldn't worry about the random noise around the mean. One immediate problem with real world stuff like this is selection. How do we know that Tesla is safer because it is built more safely than normal cars, rather than that perhaps people who are more s…

Genuine question. Did you mean to ignore the fact that Tesla knows the score? Tesla knows all of those statistics about its drivers, and knows how those numbers compare to other published data. And they chose to write up the data in the manner they did. In which configuration of all possible worlds is this ok?

Funnily enough I hadn't actually considered it. I guess because I was considering it from the outside.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#452

Post by astazangasta » Thu, May 02, 2019, 2:03 PM UTC

chillingeffect wrote: post #428

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I genuinely don't understand This can only make sense if you ignore all the weird, incoherent, inchoate, abusive, and absurd things that come out of Elon Musk.

I'm not even a Musk fan, but have you got refs for these? Worst I've seen is smoking a joint and misleading about having an investor they didn't have. I believe his opinion that Teslas only needing cameras bc that's all humans use to drive is incorrect but honest. I don't think he's mean, I think he's overly, conveniently idealistic to a point which needs to be corrected.

I guess you missed the bits where he called a rescue diver a pedophile, probably his worst. The guy has no control over what he says. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-16/musk-labe...

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#453

Post by astazangasta » Thu, May 02, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

yifanl wrote: post #423

v_lisivka wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's driver responsibility to drive the car and pay attention to the road.

By representing the car to come with an auto driver, they implicitly take on that responsibility.

By naming it "Autopilot" they take on that responsibility.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#454

Post by cptskippy » Thu, May 02, 2019, 2:32 PM UTC

bloak wrote: post #450

CoolGuySteve wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At some speed stopping the collision becomes difficult/impossible. But in the meantime I'd vastly prefer colliding after significant breaking than not.

And colliding after significant braking would be even better.

Most AEBs do not brake at high speed because reacting to a false positive can actually cause accidents. This makes sense as the time needed to respond to a situation demands detecting objects at greater range which requires more than just higher resolution sensors because as you get further ahead of the vehicle you have to contextualize what you're seeing.

Tesla's system is attempting to do that contextualization where as most other manufacturers systems are simple feedback loops.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#455

Post by avar » Thu, May 02, 2019, 2:35 PM UTC

chillingeffect wrote: post #428

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I genuinely don't understand This can only make sense if you ignore all the weird, incoherent, inchoate, abusive, and absurd things that come out of Elon Musk.

I'm not even a Musk fan, but have you got refs for these? Worst I've seen is smoking a joint and misleading about having an investor they didn't have. I believe his opinion that Teslas only needing cameras bc that's all humans use to drive is incorrect but honest. I don't think he's mean, I think he's overly, conveniently idealistic to a point which needs to be corrected.

    > [...]misleading about having an investor
    > they didn't have[...]

It was a lot worse than that:

1. TSLA told the SEC Musk's personal Twitter fell under their purview.

2. SEC: OK, thanks!

3. Musk proceeded to talk shit on Twitter.

4. The SEC got upset, TSLA agreed to have all of Musk's investor-related musings reviewed before posting.

5. Musk proceeds to share investment-related musings on Twitter again without going through that process.

6. The SEC tightens the screws.

There's mistakes, and then there's dangerously infantile and reckless behavior from a CEO and the board.

It's not even about the specifics of what he said. How hard is it to have one Twitter account for your random musings and another one for investment commentary?

Or, hire a full-time small team of lawyers whose only job is to be constantly VNC'd into your phone and shut it down if you're about to violate the SEC's terms about your use of Twitter.

If only there had been some prior warning signs, I don't know, maybe the board having some actionable thing to work with earlier. Say, like Musk calling a worldwide hero "pedo guy" on Twitter a year earlier, which might suggest that maybe his impulsive use of social media should be reigned in?

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#456

Post by tim333 » Thu, May 02, 2019, 2:45 PM UTC

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #446

tim333 wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Current Autopilot features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous." From your link.

Tesla needs to get their story straight. They're trying to talk out of both sides out of their mouth, and using whichever statement is convenient at different places.

My understanding is the video is a demo of what their research technology can do as a one off demo, not recommended procedure.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#457

Post by jtbayly » Thu, May 02, 2019, 2:48 PM UTC

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #432

jtbayly wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most accident are in the 15 Km around the drivers' home You’ll often read this, yes, but I read a fascinating breakdown that called BS on the whole thing.

Would you be so kind as to point me in the general direction of such bullshit.

Apologies if I'm wrong. Can't find anything right now (no time to search further) except some clarifications that accidents closer to home are often with parked cars, not often fatal, at slower speeds, and that possibly the biggest reason is simply because the majority of our driving is close to home.

It's that last item that I'm focussing on.

In other words, are we statistically more likely to crash near home? Yes. Are we more likely to have an accident simply because we are close to home? Not likely. If two thirds of accidents (for example) are within 5 miles of home, what percent of your driving is within 5 miles? If it's also two thirds, then it's a useless statistic that is thrown around for FUD purposes.

I can't back it up right now, though.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#458

Post by zaroth » Thu, May 02, 2019, 3:04 PM UTC

FireBeyond wrote: post #256

zaroth wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Tesla driver, I look out the windows when operating my motor vehicle. If my car crashes on AutoPilot or otherwise, it’s my fault. When Tesla tells me I can stop looking while the car drives, instead of how they currently do it where it constantly reminds me to be alert, then I might change my position. Until then it is abundantly clear to every single Tesla driver, who exactly is responsible for controlling the…

> instead of how they currently do it where it constantly reminds me to be alert, then I might change my position. So you're a new Tesla owner then? Because a few years ago, it'd only tell you to put your hands on the wheel once every 15 _minutes_...

Relatively new, I bought a TM3 last July.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#459

Post by slavik81 » Thu, May 02, 2019, 3:09 PM UTC

zip1234 wrote: post #406

aduric wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why call it 'autopilot'? Seems like bullshit marketing to me. The first association we make when we hear that term is hands-off, not 'advanced cruise control'. They're specifically using that terminology to sell their products and now they're paying the price.

In an airplane, autopilot still requires the pilot to pay attention.

In an emergency, an airplane pilot often has time to pull out the operating handbook, flip through to the emergency checklist for their particular problem, and follow the instructions. Even for time-critical emergencies, it's recommended to read through the checklist afterwards to ensure you didn't forget anything [1].

By contrast, it would be very unsafe to be reading the Tesla owner's manual while driving. The level of attention required is much higher.

[1]: http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/publications/tp11575-e...

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#460

Post by pbreit » Thu, May 02, 2019, 3:52 PM UTC

FireBeyond wrote: post #241

marmshallow wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to elaborate why?

Unlikely. The only comments he's provided here are one sentence sound bites that channel Musk's purest essence. Companies using LIDAR? "They bet wrong". People describing how stereo cameras don't inherently see 3D? "Baloney. Based on eyesight". Companies that have spent years and billions developing and testing autonomy? "Almost certain they are wrong".

Well, you forgot my lengthiest scribe:

"Sure it’s laggier but with dedicated silicon that’s a non-issue.

Fact is vision is more than adequate. And lidar is literally blind."

There's no evidence that I have seen that suggests vision-based autonomy will not be sufficient. Tesla is not the only one using the approach. Lidar has its own problem with cost and that it literally cannot see.