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Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

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Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#381

Tesla's blog post: https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/update-last-week’s-accident the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision. The driver had about five seconds and 150 meters of unobstructed view of the concrete divider Looks like sensors failed to see concrete divider in nice sunny weather and car slammed in to it at 70mph. Driver was obviously over confident on system's a…

> Driver was obviously over confident on system's ability to self-drive, probably busy looking at phone and ignored warnings to put his hands on steering.

and based on personal experience, he was probably overconfident because the person who sold him that car was overconfident.

i remember my first tesla autopilot test drive on a freeway...i was a bit nervous...constantly stepping in when i thought the car was tail-gating or not breaking fast enough and the salesman had a very nonchalant attitude as if I was being needlessly anxious about it.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#382
A more nuanced dissection of whose fault it was or could be[0].

"Huang was apparently fooled many times by Autopilot. In fact, he reportedly experienced the exact same system failure that led to his fatal crash at the same location on at least seven occasions." ...........

"Huang knew that Autopilot could not be relied on in the circumstances where he was commuting along the 101 freeway in Mountainview, California. Yet he persisted in both using the system and ignoring the alerts that the system apparently gave him to put his hands on the wheel and take full control." ..........

"Elon Musk and Tesla should be held to account for the way they have rolled out and promoted Autopilot. But users like Walter Huang are probably not the poster children for this accountability."

[0]https://www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsamid/2019/05/01/the-pr...

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the bigger issue is that Tesla would rather lie than accept responsibility and work to improve the problem. I would never trust a company like this with my life.

Tesla is improving Autopilot all the time.

Except when it regresses. See 'Tesla hit truck broadside'.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I specifically said that it should be done on high volume, maintained roads, such as highways and ring roads. It doesn't have to happen overnight, but it could happen gradually. It would serve other purposes too, like guidance for snow plows. It's a 80/20 solution - cover 80% of the travel for 20% of the cost. Solving the problem on highways and high volume roads without cyclists are significantly easier, and would s…

> I specifically said that it should be done on high volume, maintained roads, such as highways and ring roads. It doesn't have to happen overnight, but it could happen gradually. It would serve other purposes too, like guidance for snow plows. It's a 80/20 solution - cover 80% of the travel for 20% of the cost. Solving the problem on highways and high volume roads without cyclists are significantly easier, and would…

> I've travelled by road a fair bit around different countries and I assure you that a lot of high volume maintained roads still fall into the categories I outlined. Moreover, a lot of high volume roads aren't maintained. I honestly don't think you would even get remotely close to covering 80% of the roads for 20% of the cost.

I did not say 80% of the road, but 80% of the travel. Most of the kms driven are on highways, ring roads, and main roads into larger cities.

> having some roads updated and others not would actually be more dangerous than having none redeveloped because humans would demonstrate the same complacency across all the roads once they're used to autonomy on the new roads.

The car will pull over if you don't take over. I fail to see the issue in that. I'm advocating for a system that will autonomously drive where the infrastructure allows, not everywhere. If the system can handle driving at the highway for me for 2 hours, I'll be significantly more fit for driving the last 20 minutes.

> Shooting the cables is the easy if you have pavements with cables already installed. If you don't then you need to dig up the road to lay them

No you do not. They can even remove a small patch of tarmac, "shoot" and entire sewer line a long way and remove patch of tarmac at the destination. That's how they get optical fibers under roads and brick paving without digging it up.

> There's a whole load of costs involved in the planning stage; scheduling the work around busy periods (which sometimes means paying for night shift work) and organising the road closures

I never said it wasn't extra work. A cost benefit is needed, but the current AI approach will either cost many lives, or we agree on a better more expensive way.

> If you don't have total coverage then the mesh network isn't going to be reliable.

Again, a 100% solution is never happening. But by legislation we can increase adoption slowly, but steadily, until and past the point where we see the many benefits. In the EU all new cars must have DLR, AEB, TPM, ESP, ABS, seat belts, ect. - this would just be another thing new cars must have to ever be allowed to be sold on the market. It should not be up to the manufactures to agree, because they all want their solution, not an interoperable one.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#385

If the Tesla had a proximity sensor that slammed on the breaks in the last 2-3 meters, would he have survived? I ask because it's a common luxury car feature and would be easy for Tesla to implement. IIRC this crash and the semitruck crash had no evidence of the autopilot hitting the breaks according to the NTSB. Even if his velocity was only reduced by a fraction, the amount of power involved in the collision would…

No auto-cruise-control system will suddenly brake if it comes across a stationary object at highway speeds. The danger that a false positive ends up causing a pile-up on the freeway is too dangerous.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#386

Tesla's blog post: https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/update-last-week’s-accident the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision. The driver had about five seconds and 150 meters of unobstructed view of the concrete divider Looks like sensors failed to see concrete divider in nice sunny weather and car slammed in to it at 70mph. Driver was obviously over confident on system's a…

I'm paraphrasing from the last time this was posted, but Tesla's words need to be read very carefully. What they say is: > the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision What Tesla does not say is that the six seconds the driver's hands were not on the wheel was immediately preceding the crash. It is any six seconds before the crash. Admittedly this is a very dark reading, ho…

> I genuinely don't understand

This can only make sense if you ignore all the weird, incoherent, inchoate, abusive, and absurd things that come out of Elon Musk.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#387
post #278

That's what happens when you mislead your customers into believing your self-driving technology is far more advanced than it actually is. I hope Tesla loses this case and is forced to change their bullshit marketing before more people lose their lives.

But they actually didn't. They specifically tell you it is NOT a fully autonomous autopilot and that's it's more of an advanced cruise control. They also specifically tell you to KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE ROAD. If you fail to do so, you're asking for trouble. It is unfortunate the guy haf kids that will now grow up orphans, but judging from the information I've read in the Tesla blog post, it is clear that he was in the…

They tell you those things in safety notes, but then the marketing people at Tesla call it "Autopilot", a name deliberately designed to imply hands-off operation.

To quote https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot

"An autopilot is a system used to control the trajectory of an aircraft without constant 'hands-on' control by a human operator being required."

Should users pay attention at all times, of course. Does Tesla provide mixed messages to users about the efficacy of the system.... I'd say there is evidence to support that.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No auto-cruise-control system will suddenly brake if it comes across a stationary object at highway speeds. The danger that a false positive ends up causing a pile-up on the freeway is too dangerous.

What? I have three cars with AEB/adaptive cruise control and I've experienced two of them doing exactly what you describe and saved me a bunch of damage.

Here's a TV show trying them at 55mph and 60mph, though with a slow moving object. The Volvo still works quite well at 60. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzHM6PVTjXo&feature=youtu.be...

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#389

Tesla's blog post: https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/update-last-week’s-accident the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision. The driver had about five seconds and 150 meters of unobstructed view of the concrete divider Looks like sensors failed to see concrete divider in nice sunny weather and car slammed in to it at 70mph. Driver was obviously over confident on system's a…

>> In the US, there is one automotive fatality every 86 million miles across all vehicles from all manufacturers. For Tesla, there is one fatality, including known pedestrian fatalities, every 320 million miles in vehicles equipped with Autopilot hardware. If you are driving a Tesla equipped with Autopilot hardware, you are 3.7 times less likely to be involved in a fatal accident. HN's Contrarian Skeptics Brigade can…

Weeeelllll actuallly...

10/100 is same percentage as 1/10, so groups would have same mean.

Your point is fair though, but it would be more appropriate to make the example 0/10 in the small group when there was a ~1/10 chance of that happening (based on larger groups distribution) so its not super significant.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#390

Tesla's blog post: https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/update-last-week’s-accident the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision. The driver had about five seconds and 150 meters of unobstructed view of the concrete divider Looks like sensors failed to see concrete divider in nice sunny weather and car slammed in to it at 70mph. Driver was obviously over confident on system's a…

I have to wonder what the fatality rate is among the Tesla demographic: those who have relatively new luxury cars.
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