Don't Waste Time on User Onboarding • Hacker News Board

Re: Don't Waste Time on User Onboarding

#31

Post by mobjack » Thu, May 02, 2019, 1:17 PM UTC

calewis wrote: post #22

If you need to create on-boarding your product is to complicated. Add features over time, measure there impact and remove them if they don’t work.

The perception of complexity matters more than actual complexity.

At my job we made the product more complex and in rushing to release it, we didn't include an onboarding process like the old one. The new product ended up winning the AB test in conversion.

As a follow up, I did a 3 way AB test that included the original product without the onboarding process.

What I found out was that the original product without the onboarding process performed just as well as the new one. It was the onboarding hurting our conversion.

We originally thought those extra steps helped the user make a decision but it just made the product seem more complicated and lead to analysis paralysis.

Re: Don't Waste Time on User Onboarding

#32

Post by Intermernet » Thu, May 02, 2019, 1:18 PM UTC

jordanpg wrote: post #27

onion2k wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't want to see ads, sure maybe use AdBlock or PiHole, but why block the company? Blocking the company stops the tweet appearing everywhere I see tweets. That's on my home computer, laptop, Chromebook, office computer, my phone, etc. It continues to block the ads from that company if/when Twitter work out ways around ad-blockers. And it makes me feel like I'm proactively looking after my account. I use ad bl…

I don't want to see ads, ever . I hope a growing number of people feel the same way. I don't care about the business model of the whole internet. It is obviously a house of cards. A business model based on bad UX? I hope it collapses. No, I don't know what will replace it. I don't care, as long as it doesn't involve ads. I really don't care if the ads are innocuous or labeled or relevant. I don't ever want to see an…

We're out here. You're not alone.

Re: Don't Waste Time on User Onboarding

#33

Post by dhimes » Thu, May 02, 2019, 1:20 PM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #20

dhimes wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how do people reach you to sell to you? Or, to turn it around, how do you find out about new products/solutions?

I don't use Twitter, but if I'm specifically looking for something, I will actively seek out and do the research. I suspect many others who block ads and such are the same. "They don't reach me, I reach them."

What about when you are not specifically looking for something? How do you find out about new shirts, or cars, or coffees or trips or whatever? Do you stumble across them on web sites, like in articles? On TV? If you usually find out things word-of-mouth, then how do your influencers find out about them?

Re: Don't Waste Time on User Onboarding

#34

Post by enlyth » Thu, May 02, 2019, 1:20 PM UTC

jordanpg wrote: post #27

onion2k wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't want to see ads, sure maybe use AdBlock or PiHole, but why block the company? Blocking the company stops the tweet appearing everywhere I see tweets. That's on my home computer, laptop, Chromebook, office computer, my phone, etc. It continues to block the ads from that company if/when Twitter work out ways around ad-blockers. And it makes me feel like I'm proactively looking after my account. I use ad bl…

I don't want to see ads, ever . I hope a growing number of people feel the same way. I don't care about the business model of the whole internet. It is obviously a house of cards. A business model based on bad UX? I hope it collapses. No, I don't know what will replace it. I don't care, as long as it doesn't involve ads. I really don't care if the ads are innocuous or labeled or relevant. I don't ever want to see an…

I completely agree.

I don't care if your ad is clever, relevant, organically sourced, environmentally friendly, necessary for financing your product, something I actually want, need, or didn't know I wanted yet.

The internet is plagued with this cancer everywhere you go, no matter what you do. Somehow it's become acceptable that every second of our attention and time is competed for by corporations trying to sell us things.

I simply do not want to see ads, ever.

Re: Don't Waste Time on User Onboarding

#35

Post by dotancohen » Thu, May 02, 2019, 1:21 PM UTC

jimktrains2 wrote: post #13

httpsterio wrote: post #4

I was a bit sceptical when I read the title, but the author raises a good point about calcifying users into suboptimal ux decisions. Wofkflow breaking UI changes are always hard and there's always someone whose use case [you're breaking]( https://xkcd.com/1172 ). Then again, you can't please everyone and it might hurt to stick with older decisions. Onboarding itself is extremely valuable. No application is so self ex…

> Onboarding itself is extremely valuable. As a user, I find them extremely annoying. They stop me from achieving what I want to achieve and I try to get rid of them as quickly as possible. I also find them as the hallmark of a bad UI -- if you have to tell me how to use your product, then it's not well designed.

> if you have to tell me how to use your > product, then it's not well designed.

VIM users, licensed drivers, and pilots would disagree. Powerful tools require training. If you're pushing an app that I'm already familiar with before I've ever used it, then you are obviously not innovating.

Re: Don't Waste Time on User Onboarding

#36

Post by dhimes » Thu, May 02, 2019, 1:23 PM UTC

RobertKerans wrote: post #21

dhimes wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how do people reach you to sell to you? Or, to turn it around, how do you find out about new products/solutions?

That's what Twitter is really good at already, it's literally just people chatting and shouting about stuff that other people are chatting and shouting about.

I can't imagine Twitter being good at reaching a market unless you've gone viral. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like it's like pouring a taste of wine into a fire hose. I don't think I've ever learned about a product on Twitter (but I block ads and don't do much on there). I hear about news and stuff from Twitter.

Re: Don't Waste Time on User Onboarding

#37

Post by jimktrains2 » Thu, May 02, 2019, 1:24 PM UTC

networkimprov wrote: post #26

jimktrains2 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd venture to say that breaking UI paradigms shouldn't be taken lightly. Your application is not special to me, the user. I don't want to have to learn how to use the interface of dozens of different applications because they all thought they were special snowflakes and could break established paradigms.

I was referring to application paradigms, not common UI patterns.

What's the distinction? If a user is surprised by what happens when they interact with the UI, the UI has failed.

If we're talking about an application that requires a lot of outside knowledge (e.g. GIS (Geographic Information Systems (mapping)), accounting, video editing), you're not going to be able to "teach" the user what they need to know in the UI or some short videos.

In one case on-boarding is a symptom of a bad UI, in the other it's more-or-less useless.

Re: Don't Waste Time on User Onboarding

#38

Post by dotancohen » Thu, May 02, 2019, 1:28 PM UTC

dhimes wrote: post #33

userbinator wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't use Twitter, but if I'm specifically looking for something, I will actively seek out and do the research. I suspect many others who block ads and such are the same. "They don't reach me, I reach them."

What about when you are not specifically looking for something? How do you find out about new shirts, or cars, or coffees or trips or whatever? Do you stumble across them on web sites, like in articles? On TV? If you usually find out things word-of-mouth, then how do your influencers find out about them?

I'm not the OP, but I'll answer the question anyway. When I'm not specifically looking for something, then I don't find out about them. My attention is limited, I don't have enough to give to every little outfit interested in taking my money. I don't need a new shirt, or car, or coffee or trip. And when I do, then I'll google it and I'll happily see all the ads that Google will show me.

The ads are blocked until then.

Re: Don't Waste Time on User Onboarding

#39

Post by duxup » Thu, May 02, 2019, 1:34 PM UTC

mobjack wrote: post #31

calewis wrote: post #22

If you need to create on-boarding your product is to complicated. Add features over time, measure there impact and remove them if they don’t work.

The perception of complexity matters more than actual complexity. At my job we made the product more complex and in rushing to release it, we didn't include an onboarding process like the old one. The new product ended up winning the AB test in conversion. As a follow up, I did a 3 way AB test that included the original product without the onboarding process. What I found out was that the original product without the…

Yeah it's the user's perception that is the key.

I work with a product where the end user is ... shockingly luddite. I suppose everyone feels that way but these end users are very very easily intimidated even with little changes.

Accordingly it doesn't matter how much I think something is simple, it matters what they do and what they're intimidated by. I could make the best super cool web app ever, but if they don't use it / effectively it doesn't matter and becomes a headache for everyone.

Re: Don't Waste Time on User Onboarding

#40

Post by ben_w » Thu, May 02, 2019, 1:37 PM UTC

waylandsmithers wrote: post #28

I get that there are probably established best practices that people follow for designing onboarding but I've never experienced one as a user that I didn't want to immediately dismiss or skip through.

Likewise. However, it’s worth remembering that the average user of a website that’s called “Hacker News” is almost certainly more tech-savvy than the average user of any app we create.

My solution is, just as the article suggests:

> Okay, so your service is immensely easier to navigate since you ran it past a battery of theoretical users. Now cut half of it out.

Perhaps that applies no matter how big the app gets, perhaps a simple UX that hides the power tools until they’re called for is the one true way. On the other hand, virtually every time I’ve faced a user saying “$App should perform $Task”, it already does. Sometimes the app doesn’t have a particular feature, but the virtual assistant of the OS does.

What’s the best way of helping those users discover those features?