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Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

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Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#411

Post by tim333 »

rjdagost wrote: post #206

Tesla made some very big claims in their recent autonomy day event- basically, they claimed that they are years ahead of competitors, while operating on "hard" mode (no lidar). And yet, a number of participants in the short autonomy day demo rides claimed that the support driver had to disengage the autopilot. Has Tesla provided any evidence which shows evidence that they are in fact far beyond competitors?

I'm not even sure what evidence could exist to show Tesla is years ahead. Who knows how much Waymo, Cruise et al will advance next year. You can't fully see the future here.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#412

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

sytelus wrote: post #254

Tesla's blog post: https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/update-last-week’s-accident the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision. The driver had about five seconds and 150 meters of unobstructed view of the concrete divider Looks like sensors failed to see concrete divider in nice sunny weather and car slammed in to it at 70mph. Driver was obviously over confident on system's a…

> Looks like sensors failed to see concrete divider in nice sunny weather and car slammed in to it at 70mph.

This doesn’t sound right.

Last time I looked in to this, Telsa’s software intentionally ignores station objects when the vehicle is traveling at speed.

Has this changed?

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#413

Post by jfk13 »

bufferoverflow wrote: post #402
sytelus wrote: post #254

Tesla's blog post: https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/update-last-week’s-accident the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision. The driver had about five seconds and 150 meters of unobstructed view of the concrete divider Looks like sensors failed to see concrete divider in nice sunny weather and car slammed in to it at 70mph. Driver was obviously over confident on system's a…

It's unfair that Tesla would get sued for every death, but wouldn't get a comparable reward for every death it prevented.

But it's perhaps not unfair to sue them for misleading advertising that leads to people getting killed.

"The person in the driver's seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself."

creates very different expectations from

"While the car is driving itself, the person in the driver's seat is keeping his hands on the steering wheel and his attention on the road at all times."

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#415

Post by tim333 »

smallnamespace wrote: post #245
blevin wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s almost as though you have to treat them like human drivers. We cannot formally verify 16 year olds, either, or sufficiently introspect accurate reasons for their behavior. Instead, we require them to pass a test, we apply actuarial cost models, etc.

16-year-olds can talk and try to explain themselves. Humans try very hard to make themselves understand. Neural nets can't (at least, not yet).

You can figure what the Tesla NN would say if they built an explanatory speech system in. Something like "Opps sorry - I thought that which line was a lane and didn't recognise the barrier." Not all that helpful here really.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#416

Post by pixelperfect »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #377
tim333 wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Current Autopilot features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous." From your link.

There’s clearly contradictory information going on, so I can see why a customer may be confused.

If I take the perspective of someone who isn't informed about the technology, I can see how they could think that the technology is safe and Tesla is putting excessive warnings because their lawyers want them to. I think superfluous warnings on so many products has trained people to take warnings less seriously.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#417

Post by salawat »

breck wrote: post #116
salawat wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is, unfortunately, the problem with neural nets in general. They are amazing logical constructs, but there is a fundamental opaqueness to them that absent sufficient neural network mass to convincingly simulate a human, we can't apply the same methods of formal verification and behavioral inference we could for other more specific machine implementations. No one can explain just why certain weights work at certa…

There's no fundamental law that requires neural networks be hard to understand. In fact debugging and interpreting neural networks is a very active area of research and getting easier everyday. In twenty years I would not be surprised if tools are so good, due to economic forces, that it's easier to understand why a neural network made a decision than it is to understand why some complex hand written conditionals pro…

That still doesn't solve the problem.

Nodes X, Y, and Z reached action potential tells us nada useful about useful about the NN.

It's not a question of not being able to run the code in debug; we can absolutely do that.

It's a question of the outcome only being dependent on a seemingly random set of numbers which no one can really reason from. That's the issue. With teenagers, we at least have the ability to structure incentives such that they continually improve their driving behavior, and most importantly, they are actually capable of learning after you cut them loose with the car. No hardware upgrades required.

The car on the other hand? Not so much.

W.r.t another poster's suggestion of the employment of actuarial models: I consider the employment of insurance to be a less than satisfying marshaling of our economic time, and a backdoor social control mechanism that still just makes me fidget. But that's just me.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#418

Post by Amezarak »

cromulent wrote: post #335
nolok wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do they still do this? What's the point if not trying to mislead the public? You're answering your own question there; they're doing it not with assumed evil intent ("let's lie about the safeties so that people kill themselves ! meuahahah") but for PR and stock reasons, but it ends up being the same result: they want people to see autopilot as "it drives for you" if you're a car buyer or an investor, but they a…

It's a terrible comparison, that's for sure. The figure they quote (1 per 86 million miles) is for all vehicles (including bicycles). Only 37% of those deaths came from passenger vehicles. Additionally, the Tesla cohort is really modern high-safety passenger vehicles IMO. A < 5 year old passenger vehicle with stability control, etc could easily be statistically as safe as a Tesla.

There are in fact many models of vehicles with zero deaths.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#419

Post by moduspol »

huhtenberg wrote: post #339

This person died because of Tesla's cocky marketing, which leads people to believe that "Auto Pilot" is just that and that does very little to discourage this interpretation even though it is life-threatening. In this context them blaming it on the accident victim is a 100% asshole move. I am life-long Musk's fan, but Tesla trying their hardest to weasel out of any responsibility here is incredibly damaging to their…

From the article:

> According to the family, Mr. Huang was well aware that Autopilot was not perfect and, specifically, he told them it was not reliable in that exact location, yet he nonetheless engaged Autopilot at that location.

How can one possibly claim cocky marketing is the problem in this case?

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#420

Post by studentrob »

strainer wrote: post #409
rolleiflex wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm paraphrasing from the last time this was posted, but Tesla's words need to be read very carefully. What they say is: > the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision What Tesla does not say is that the six seconds the driver's hands were not on the wheel was immediately preceding the crash. It is any six seconds before the crash. Admittedly this is a very dark reading, ho…

You are claiming that the accuracy of Telsas language is outrageously deceptive, using an outrageously made up example of deception: "six seconds prior to the collision = It is any six seconds before the crash" "This is the kind of sketchiness that makes people wary of Tesla." Its the kind of sketchiness that make me wary of the stuff people post about Tesla. If the driver had multiple warnings - about anything, any…

According to Tesla,

> the only way for this accident to have occurred is if Mr. Huang was not paying attention to the road [1]

Tesla has made a habit of drawing conclusions about investigations that have just begun. It is sketchy, and people have noticed.

[1] https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-says-fatal-model-x-aut...

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