Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

techcrunch.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 495 posts

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#101

Post by megaremote »

lunulata wrote: post #38

Living around silicon valley with all the tesla drivers here, you learn real fast it makes for some of the worst drivers out on the road. Regularly see them running red lights and just generally not paying attention. They crutch too hard on the auto-pilot and dick around on their smart phones, which is probably exactly what this guy was doing. It's bad for tesla drivers and it's bad for drivers around them. Hope Tesl…

Generally, the more someone pays for their car, the more entitled they are and the more laws they break.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#102

Post by protomyth »

salawat wrote: post #61
protomyth wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That really isn't going to play well with a judge or jury. I can see the poor programmer up on the stand not being able to say what it meant or how the car made its decisions.

That is, unfortunately, the problem with neural nets in general. They are amazing logical constructs, but there is a fundamental opaqueness to them that absent sufficient neural network mass to convincingly simulate a human, we can't apply the same methods of formal verification and behavioral inference we could for other more specific machine implementations. No one can explain just why certain weights work at certa…

No one can explain just why certain weights work at certain situations and not others. They just do.

I think the problem will come when some lawyer latches on to that as a way of saying the auto maker is putting a product it cannot prove or explain on the road, but still claiming it’s safe.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#103

Post by pdonis »

CoolGuySteve wrote: post #73
barrkel wrote: post #21

I think it's deeply irresponsible to create a device which can drive in 90 or 95% of scenarios. It's just a way to fool humans into killing themselves.

If the system is even a few percent better than humans then it would save thousands of lives when widely deployed. Musk has made this argument many times. Basically don't let perfect be the enemy of better. But if the vendor is legally liable in each case then this software is untenable.

A few percent better than humans at what?

If it's better at avoiding harm, across the board, in all situations where humans currently operate vehicles, then yes, that would be an improvement. But Tesla is nowhere near being able to do that.

Tesla seems to be trying to claim that it's sufficient for them to be a few percent better at, for example, keeping the car in its lane, or maintaining speed, or spotting obstacles. That's not an improvement. Driving is not a contest to see who can identify the most obstacles or maintain speed or lane alignment the best. People want to get where they're going safely.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#105

Post by blevin »

salawat wrote: post #61
protomyth wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That really isn't going to play well with a judge or jury. I can see the poor programmer up on the stand not being able to say what it meant or how the car made its decisions.

That is, unfortunately, the problem with neural nets in general. They are amazing logical constructs, but there is a fundamental opaqueness to them that absent sufficient neural network mass to convincingly simulate a human, we can't apply the same methods of formal verification and behavioral inference we could for other more specific machine implementations. No one can explain just why certain weights work at certa…

It’s almost as though you have to treat them like human drivers. We cannot formally verify 16 year olds, either, or sufficiently introspect accurate reasons for their behavior. Instead, we require them to pass a test, we apply actuarial cost models, etc.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#106

Post by natch »

threeseed wrote: post #50
baoha wrote: post #25

While I'm not quite sure about Tesla's responsibility, I do think CA DOT has its part in this tragic accident. Had the attenuator been replaced right after the previous accident, it could have saved the driver's life. Usually I don't complain much about the gov, but just look at the construction mess they've created on 101, it's been like that for more than 4 years!

So don't blame the company whose claiming that their car can "autopilot" under all conditions. Instead blame the road. Interesting take.

This is a bizarrely inaccurate mischaracterization of what Tesla has ever said about autopilot.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#107

Post by javagram »

rasz wrote: post #88
zaroth wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His car increased speed because the adaptive cruise was set to a higher speed than his car was going, and for 4 seconds before impact there were no cars in front of him. The adaptive cruise increased speed to his set point when his car left the flow of traffic. The AEB will not trigger on a stationary object at highway speeds. I do not believe there exists any AEB that will emergency brake at highway speed, maybe exc…

>crash attenuator >this particular one is hit fairly frequently. Interesting way to build your road infrastructure

With the number of people who drive drunk or sleepy or while texting, crashes are inevitable.

Unfortunately tesla autopilot drives like an impaired human.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#108

Post by natch »

LeoPanthera wrote: post #89
rayiner wrote: post #87

I hear people say “self driving cars don’t have to be perfect, they just need to be safer than humans.” Here is a good example of why that might be harder to achieve than expected. Apparently the car had gotten confused at that exact location repeatedly before. That’s what self driving cars are going to do—if there is something “weird” it’s likely that every self driving car (at least, every one from the same manufac…

To play devil's advocate: Assuming self-driving cars are connected to each other, either directly or via the internet, if one car crashes, or even just makes a minor mistake, the knowledge of how to avoid that can be transmitted to every other car on the planet.

This is very close to what is actually happening, though not in real time.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#110

Post by beering »

bagels wrote: post #86
rayiner wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A commercial airliner autopilot (the kind people think of when you say autopilot) can perform evasive maneuvers and land the plane.

What are they evading?

Other airplanes. Also the ground.

But the simple autopilots (think an old Cessna) don't even try to avoid the ground for you. If you set it and forget it, you may find yourself dead on a mountainside.

Post reply on HN