Live data from Hacker News

Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

techcrunch.com

141–150 of 495 posts

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#141
post #121
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC, the barrier was damaged from an accident that happened 11 days prior [0]. One or two weeks later, I remember driving past the area of the crash a Sunday or two Sundays after the Tesla fatal wreck (I vaguely remember the time period because I remember picking up a visiting friend in early April). Traffic had slowed down to a crawl for miles, and it appeared that a crew was doing work on that barrier -- I assume…

There should have been no delay - it is designed as a critical part of highway safety infrastructure, as the death in this situation highlights; it should have been immediately reconstructed - and hopefully this lawsuit will lead to that protocol being implemented/adhered to.

Is there a law or regulation that mandates this? The article says Caltrans claims a storm caused the delay:

> "Once our Maintenance team has been notified, the Department's goal is to repair or replace damaged guardrail or crash attenuators within seven days or five business days, depending on weather. These are guidelines that our Maintenance staff follow. However, as in this case, storms can delay the fix."

The delay may or may not have been justified (I guess we'll find out if the family decides to sue the state). But an actual regulation is important, because not only would it provide explicit criteria to show Caltrans is in the wrong, it would've (or at least should've) meant funding and procedures are in place. There's always a tradeoff between cost and safety. If the state of California doesn't provide the funding and staffing it would require to replace this barrier with "no delay", then it seems difficult to fault Caltrans for negligence.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#142
post #126

I would like to add over here that Tesla does indeed do sensor fusion in their cars. Their Autopilot combines radar and ultrasound with vision to decide where to drive. Commentators bringing up LIDAR are jumping the gun by assuming that this scenario isn't something that these sensors wouldn't have detected in either combination or individually to spot the anomaly. The problem over here is likely to be software due t…

The sensor technology is a big factor here. You can use LIDAR for perception without needing a neural net. On the other hand with radar + ultrasound + vision you'll need a neural net to try to detect things like obstacles, since the raw data from those sensors doesn't directly tell you whether there is an obstacle in the way.

That's a very common perception, but it's not true! Kalman filters have for years been used to get usable data out of these and multiple studies have shown that ultrasound can be used as a standalone in low-speed scenarios.

Design and experimental study of an ultrasonic sensor system for lateral collision avoidance at low speeds - https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/1336460

Environmental perception and multi-sensor data fusion for off-road autonomous vehicles - https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/1520113 (this one uses laser range finders not LIDAR with some vision)

"Automotive radar the key technology for autonomous driving: From detection and ranging to environmental understanding" - https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/7485214

Real-time SLAM has also been done with vision + inertial navigation for UAVs; A synchronized visual-inertial sensor system with FPGA pre-processing for accurate real-time SLAM - https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/6906892 - https://www.research-collection.ethz.ch/bitstream/handle/20....

Some people have proposed laser range finders with ultrasound (sonar);

'This article addresses the problem of performing SLAM under reduced visibility conditions by proposing a sensor fusion layer which takes advantage from complementary characteristics between a laser range finder (LRF) and an array of sonars. This sensor fusion layer is ultimately used with a state-of-the-art SLAM technique to be resilient in scenarios where visibility cannot be assumed at all times.'

A Sensor Fusion Layer to Cope with Reduced Visibility in SLAM - https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10846-015-0180-8 - http://eprints.lincoln.ac.uk/16820/7/__ddat02_staffhome_jpar...

There are enough datapoints between vision, ultrasound and radar for old school algorithms to do real time SLAM and make cost maps. So the problem and solution definitely isn't MOAR SENSARS.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#143
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like his smartphone is about as liable as Tesla here. If he hadn't been distracted this shouldn't have happened. He knew his autopilot doesn't handle this section of the road.

I'm confused here. Has Tesla publicly stated which sections of the road autopilot doesn't work on ?

> Has Tesla publicly stated which sections of the road autopilot doesn't work on ?

yes: noone of them. you are to be able to take control at all time.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#144
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very close to what is actually happening, though not in real time.

Based on what evidence?

Based on what Tesla presented in their autonomy day event (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ucp0TTmvqOE) but it's also what they've been saying publicly for a while now... in a nutshell, they ask the cars to send selected summary data back when interventions happen and in certain other cases.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#145

I know the argument is always that autopilot is not intended by Tesla to be abused (never mind the CEO on national television abusing it). However, there's what you tell humans, and then there's pragmatism regarding human nature. We should consider the latter. It's possible to be both academically correct on the warnings/instructions given and also practically wrong on human psychology.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#146
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the system is even a few percent better than humans then it would save thousands of lives when widely deployed. Musk has made this argument many times. Basically don't let perfect be the enemy of better. But if the vendor is legally liable in each case then this software is untenable.

A few percent better than humans at what? If it's better at avoiding harm , across the board, in all situations where humans currently operate vehicles, then yes, that would be an improvement. But Tesla is nowhere near being able to do that. Tesla seems to be trying to claim that it's sufficient for them to be a few percent better at, for example, keeping the car in its lane, or maintaining speed, or spotting obstacl…

[deleted]

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#147
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a pilot, but I have had flying lessons. Airplane autopilots are extremely simple. They can basically fly you in a straight line, at a fixed altitude. Tesla's autopilot is actually way more advanced than those found in airplanes.

By that argument, every car with cruise control (i.e. almost all of them) has autopilot. Clearly, with their naming of their system as autopilot rather than cruise control, Tesla is trying to imply that autopilot means something more. Namely, it means the driver / pilot can offload the work of routine driving / flying to the computer, only intervening in certain times (e.g. off0highway or takeoff / landing) or in the…

Do you understand the difference between going in a straight line and going at a consistent speed?

Cruise control only enables the latter.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#148

If the Tesla had a proximity sensor that slammed on the breaks in the last 2-3 meters, would he have survived? I ask because it's a common luxury car feature and would be easy for Tesla to implement. IIRC this crash and the semitruck crash had no evidence of the autopilot hitting the breaks according to the NTSB. Even if his velocity was only reduced by a fraction, the amount of power involved in the collision would…

> it's a common luxury car feature Almost all luxury cars implement this feature the same way that Tesla does, with radar that ignores stationary objects. I'm not aware of another company that implements the steer towards obstacles part of the problem, though.

This is simply not correct. In fact, the link in the comment you just responded to contradicts you: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-featu...

It's actually pretty frustrating to have written a little summary of what likely happened WITH SOURCES, that a lead car changed lanes and confused the AES system, only to have people ignore it.

The only thing worse then a pedant is an incorrect pedant.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#149
post #138
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sensor technology is a big factor here. You can use LIDAR for perception without needing a neural net. On the other hand with radar + ultrasound + vision you'll need a neural net to try to detect things like obstacles, since the raw data from those sensors doesn't directly tell you whether there is an obstacle in the way.

Everything you said is very wrong. LIDAR produces line of sight depth information. Stereo cameras produce line of sight depth information. Radar produces line of sight depth information. Ultrasound produces line of sight depth information. The only differences are how, how fast, and how detailed. The biggest difference between LIDAR and stereo vision is that LIDAR doesn't depend on illumination because it uses its ow…

Stereo cameras produce line of sight depth information

That is wrong. Stereo cameras provide data which, after significant processing, can result in line-of-sight depth information. With radar (including LIDAR) and ultrasound, the depth information is essentially "free" since very little processing is required to extract the depth information (i.e., the information returned is the depth).

So the biggest difference between stereovision and everything else is that stereovision requires additional processing to extract the depth information.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#150
post #87

I hear people say “self driving cars don’t have to be perfect, they just need to be safer than humans.” Here is a good example of why that might be harder to achieve than expected. Apparently the car had gotten confused at that exact location repeatedly before. That’s what self driving cars are going to do—if there is something “weird” it’s likely that every self driving car (at least, every one from the same manufac…

To play devil's advocate: Assuming self-driving cars are connected to each other, either directly or via the internet, if one car crashes, or even just makes a minor mistake, the knowledge of how to avoid that can be transmitted to every other car on the planet.

This feels more dangerous, not less.
Post reply on HN