Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#121

Post by loceng » Thu, May 02, 2019, 2:22 AM UTC

danso wrote: post #117

baoha wrote: post #25

While I'm not quite sure about Tesla's responsibility, I do think CA DOT has its part in this tragic accident. Had the attenuator been replaced right after the previous accident, it could have saved the driver's life. Usually I don't complain much about the gov, but just look at the construction mess they've created on 101, it's been like that for more than 4 years!

IIRC, the barrier was damaged from an accident that happened 11 days prior [0]. One or two weeks later, I remember driving past the area of the crash a Sunday or two Sundays after the Tesla fatal wreck (I vaguely remember the time period because I remember picking up a visiting friend in early April). Traffic had slowed down to a crawl for miles, and it appeared that a crew was doing work on that barrier -- I assume…

There should have been no delay - it is designed as a critical part of highway safety infrastructure, as the death in this situation highlights; it should have been immediately reconstructed - and hopefully this lawsuit will lead to that protocol being implemented/adhered to.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#122

Post by natch » Thu, May 02, 2019, 2:25 AM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #47

carlivar wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The docs say to keep your hands on the wheel and stay alert at all times. Never mind Tesla CEO on national television taking hands off the wheel and not watching the road.

I'm fully aware of their recommendation. But if Tesla is aware that certain parts of the road are more likely to cause incidents and they haven't communicated that. Well sounds to me like that would be criminally negligent.

So like when a manufacturer puts a label on a set of knives saying “warning, bottom edge is sharp” something like that? Except popping up on the screen as you drive every five seconds so you can read about the hazards you are seeing outside the windows?

Nanny car, anyone?

I think drivers are already well aware that roads contain an ever changing variety of risks, and they can see the signs of these risks with their eyes.

The driver in this case was acutely aware that the beta software could not yet properly handle that segment of road. So much so that he even visited the Tesla service center specifically to let them know about the issue.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#123

Post by natch » Thu, May 02, 2019, 2:26 AM UTC

elpool2 wrote: post #62

threeseed wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fully aware of their recommendation. But if Tesla is aware that certain parts of the road are more likely to cause incidents and they haven't communicated that. Well sounds to me like that would be criminally negligent.

Surely there's some sort of "autopilot does not work on all roads" disclaimer, right? That's why you're supposed to keep your hands on the wheel and pay attention.

Yep, there is.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#124

Post by leggomylibro » Thu, May 02, 2019, 2:26 AM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #115

barrkel wrote: post #21

I think it's deeply irresponsible to create a device which can drive in 90 or 95% of scenarios. It's just a way to fool humans into killing themselves.

A minor quibble: it's irresponsible to bring it to market or otherwise operate it without additional safety measures. Creating it isn't directly a problem.

Maybe they could just update the safety messages. "Remember to keep your hands on the wheel and your eyes on the road" is too bland.

How about, "I'm doing my best, but I still might swerve into a concrete barrier any second..."?

Or, "I wonder what would happen if a deer jumped into the road right now"?

Maybe "Don't tell me the odds"? "Was that your left or my left?" I dunno, help me out here.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#125

Post by natch » Thu, May 02, 2019, 2:28 AM UTC

codetrotter wrote: post #32

yumraj wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument sounds the same as: people who smoke know that cigarettes cause cancer, in fact it says that on the pack, still they decide to smoke. So, if they get cancer and die it's their fault not the cigarette manufacturer's.

Knowingly manufacturing a product that has such a high risk of causing cancer as do cigarettes is certainly unethical in my opinion. But today when that risk is known to consumers (as opposed to in the past when it was not) it is ultimately the responsibility of anyone that decide to start smoking today when doing so ends up giving them cancer. I say this as someone who is a low volume consumer of another tobacco pro…

Autopilot arguably prevents more accidents and deaths than it causes, just to keep this in perspective. So the tobacco analogies can only go so far here.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#126

Post by ummonk » Thu, May 02, 2019, 2:28 AM UTC

areoform wrote: post #96

I would like to add over here that Tesla does indeed do sensor fusion in their cars. Their Autopilot combines radar and ultrasound with vision to decide where to drive. Commentators bringing up LIDAR are jumping the gun by assuming that this scenario isn't something that these sensors wouldn't have detected in either combination or individually to spot the anomaly. The problem over here is likely to be software due t…

The sensor technology is a big factor here. You can use LIDAR for perception without needing a neural net. On the other hand with radar + ultrasound + vision you'll need a neural net to try to detect things like obstacles, since the raw data from those sensors doesn't directly tell you whether there is an obstacle in the way.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#127

Post by robdachshund » Thu, May 02, 2019, 2:28 AM UTC

Its almost as if we shouldn't let 4000 pound metal boxes drive themselves

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#128

Post by Maxious » Thu, May 02, 2019, 2:29 AM UTC

rjdagost wrote: post #94

deckar01 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla engineers talked about this in great depth during the recent streaming event. Manual disengagement of Autopilot is the mechanism used to trigger an upload of the sensor data. It is automatically uploaded to Tesla servers and used to train the driving model.

A Twitter user who rooted his Tesla claims that autopilot disengagement reports are very small ( https://twitter.com/greentheonly/status/1096322810694287361 Not the kind of information that you use to train computer vision algorithms. I found his claims to be an interesting read.

However the rest of the thread explains that Teslas are "trigger"ed to capture imagery data (in rapid succession, almost like a video) in a variety of situations like being close to pedestrians/cyclists not just disengagements.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#129

Post by craftinator » Thu, May 02, 2019, 2:30 AM UTC

SteveNuts wrote: post #91

LeoPanthera wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a pilot, but I have had flying lessons. Airplane autopilots are extremely simple. They can basically fly you in a straight line, at a fixed altitude. Tesla's autopilot is actually way more advanced than those found in airplanes.

I think you're forgetting (more than a few) important functions that an airliner autopilot can do. Off the top of my head there's auto-throttle, auto-trim, and of course, if the runway is equipped, land the plane. Also, if the pilots input a heading change, the plane will execute a 1G turn using all control surfaces so it's almost imperceptible to the passengers. I think you're oversimplifying airliner autopilot.. by…

I think that the comparison of an aircraft autopilot to a car autopilot is just apples to oranges. They both operate in completely different environments, with different amounts and types of noise, are designed at a high level to do totally different things (yes they both "steer", but the problems they solve have no overlap), and are functionally completely different. I see this comparison a lot, and it doesn't add anything to the conversation, other than pointless bickering.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#130

Post by endianswap » Thu, May 02, 2019, 2:31 AM UTC

beering wrote: post #114

CoolGuySteve wrote: post #53

If the Tesla had a proximity sensor that slammed on the breaks in the last 2-3 meters, would he have survived? I ask because it's a common luxury car feature and would be easy for Tesla to implement. IIRC this crash and the semitruck crash had no evidence of the autopilot hitting the breaks according to the NTSB. Even if his velocity was only reduced by a fraction, the amount of power involved in the collision would…

No auto-cruise-control system will suddenly brake if it comes across a stationary object at highway speeds. The danger that a false positive ends up causing a pile-up on the freeway is too dangerous.

What? I have three cars with AEB/adaptive cruise control and I've experienced two of them doing exactly what you describe and saved me a bunch of damage.