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Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

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Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#71
post #31
post #7

That news about this case is being spread everywhere irks me a bit, because people aren't considering the actual circumstances of the accident. Excerpt from the article: "According to the family, Mr. Huang was well aware that Autopilot was not perfect and, specifically, he told them it was not reliable in that exact location, yet he nonetheless engaged Autopilot at that location. The crash happened on a clear day wit…

That's an excerpt from a statement made by Tesla that is quoted in the article. Tesla was reprimanded by the NTSB for making statements like this during the investigation process.

The article I linked in the footnote has quotes that are arguably more WTF than the Tesla statement. It quotes the wife describing how she had told him many times that the car was swerving in that spot.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#72
post #34

It seems like a (relatively) trivial addition to the Autopilot system would be to allow the drive to tell the car when it has made a mistake and if Autopilot(s) consistently make mistakes in the same area then Autopilot should give a specific warning, or force a disengagement, when it detects that it is approaching that area. I can't imagine that this isn't already a thing or that someone at Tesla hasn't come up with…

Tesla engineers talked about this in great depth during the recent streaming event. Manual disengagement of Autopilot is the mechanism used to trigger an upload of the sensor data. It is automatically uploaded to Tesla servers and used to train the driving model.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#73
post #21

I think it's deeply irresponsible to create a device which can drive in 90 or 95% of scenarios. It's just a way to fool humans into killing themselves.

If the system is even a few percent better than humans then it would save thousands of lives when widely deployed.

Musk has made this argument many times. Basically don't let perfect be the enemy of better.

But if the vendor is legally liable in each case then this software is untenable.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#74
post #26

Tesla is playing with lives and should stop offering Autopilot. Anything less than L4 autonomous driving is completely reckless. Calling it "Autopilot" when it's an L2 system should be criminal. Yes, it's an extreme stance, but we're going to have a really hard time getting out true autonomous driving when companies are playing around with people's lives. You can say "well they know the risks" but it's not a closed s…

We are going to have a really hard time getting out true autonomous driving if they don’t do this.

That’s how the system will learn how to deal with real life scenarios.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few people dying of their own irresponsibility does not warrant ruining it for the rest of us.

A lot of people said the exact same thing about lawn darts and a whole host of products and activities, but sadly, society doesn't go that way.

im all for the technology and accepting it will be fallible, just not for putting the blame for its errors onto the human non-driver

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#76
post #30
post #7

That news about this case is being spread everywhere irks me a bit, because people aren't considering the actual circumstances of the accident. Excerpt from the article: "According to the family, Mr. Huang was well aware that Autopilot was not perfect and, specifically, he told them it was not reliable in that exact location, yet he nonetheless engaged Autopilot at that location. The crash happened on a clear day wit…

As we've heard from other Tesla drivers on HN in the past: Tesla continues to deliver OTA updates, which occasionally causes people to think that previous issues have been fixed, especially if they haven't popped up again recently. Either they continue to avoid using autopilot because they can't take the chance of finding out whether Tesla ever bothered fixing the problem, or they give it a test, think it's working f…

As a Tesla driver, I look out the windows when operating my motor vehicle. If my car crashes on AutoPilot or otherwise, it’s my fault.

When Tesla tells me I can stop looking while the car drives, instead of how they currently do it where it constantly reminds me to be alert, then I might change my position.

Until then it is abundantly clear to every single Tesla driver, who exactly is responsible for controlling the vehicle. The car reminds the driver of this when activating AutoPilot and persistently while under way.

The name of the feature could be MagicCarpet, AutoDrive, AutoCruise, SmartPilot, Pilot, Jeeves, I don’t care what. The car says in big bold letters every time you activate the feature to be alert and ready to take over.

I also expect the performance of the Beta AutoPilot software to change with each update. Navigate on Autopilot didn’t exist when I first got my Tesla. Blind Spot warning functionality either. Adaptive cruise and merging behavior have both significantly improved.

Last week a car in the lane to the left of me put on its blinker and I could have sworn my Tesla slowed down to let them in. I did not notice the car make any rightward motion to enter my lane before my car slowed slightly. It was not a jerky deceleration but just a smooth increase in the distance just enough to maintain the follow distance with the new car in place. The car changed lanes in front of me and we kept driving along. I’ve never seen that before, and I wasn’t aware Tesla could do that based on optical recognition of the blinker alone, but I’m pretty sure that’s what happened. It could be the Tesla saw the car moving to enter the lane before I did, but it had certainly not crossed the dashed line before the deceleration.

Drivers flirt with danger when they allow themselves to drive distracted and stop paying full attention to the road, with or without an AutoPilot capability.

Two days ago I was driving without AutoPilot and was on a phone call on speakerphone (Bluetooth through the car speakers). It was a fairly contentious call and even though I was hands-free and looking ahead it was definitely the first thing on my mind. I was approaching a left-lane must exit, in the middle of a 3 lane highway when at the last minute a car in the left lane swerved to avoid the exit in front of me.

I probably had enough time to slow down without causing an issue behind me, but I hadn’t checked my rear-view in some time due to being distracted by the call. So instead I jerked to the right and moved partially into the right lane. A car in the right lane ~3 car lengths behind me then had to hit their brakes hard enough for their tires to squeal.

After reviewing the dashcam video (Tesla records if you plug in a drive) I was unhappy with my choice there. I should have slowed quickly and stayed in lane. If I wasn’t on that call I would have made a better choice.

But worth mentioning, if AutoPilot was engaged, it would have made the better choice in that situation as well (since AutoPilot will never swerve to avoid an obstacle in fact).

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they do have that, but as you might imagine, the emergency brakes are only there to mitigate damage in case of a crash, not to prevent them

Yes but in this case it didn't trigger.

These AEB features almost universally do not trigger on stationary objects when the car is moving more than 20 or 30mph.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#78

If the Tesla had a proximity sensor that slammed on the breaks in the last 2-3 meters, would he have survived? I ask because it's a common luxury car feature and would be easy for Tesla to implement. IIRC this crash and the semitruck crash had no evidence of the autopilot hitting the breaks according to the NTSB. Even if his velocity was only reduced by a fraction, the amount of power involved in the collision would…

His car increased speed because the adaptive cruise was set to a higher speed than his car was going, and for 4 seconds before impact there were no cars in front of him.

The adaptive cruise increased speed to his set point when his car left the flow of traffic. The AEB will not trigger on a stationary object at highway speeds. I do not believe there exists any AEB that will emergency brake at highway speed, maybe except perhaps for a pedestrian shaped object?

He hit a crash attenuator which had not been reset (so basically direct impact with concrete) after it had been hit by another car 11 days prior.

Resetting the attenuators is a simple task, but apparently this particular one is hit fairly frequently.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#79
post #74
post #26

Tesla is playing with lives and should stop offering Autopilot. Anything less than L4 autonomous driving is completely reckless. Calling it "Autopilot" when it's an L2 system should be criminal. Yes, it's an extreme stance, but we're going to have a really hard time getting out true autonomous driving when companies are playing around with people's lives. You can say "well they know the risks" but it's not a closed s…

We are going to have a really hard time getting out true autonomous driving if they don’t do this. That’s how the system will learn how to deal with real life scenarios.

You're okay training an incomplete self driving machine learning model on the general population?

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#80
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the issue with wireless updates on any vehicle. What if tomorrow Autopilot is updated and it begins occurring 2 miles down the road?

On the flip side, Tesla fixed this specific issue (and apparently unfixed it again) with over the air updates. If this was another manufacturer the cars would need to be recalled and it would likely be years before a fix was rolled out to all vehicles and therefore lives would continue to be in danger. So it isn't like over the air updates are inherently bad. The reality of the situation is that there almost certainl…

I won't argue against over the air for everything but when your 'autopilot' system can be updated any day for any reason, I would argue that it failing and killing you shouldn't be as excusable.
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