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System76 News: Coreboot and Linux Advances

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Re: System76 News: Coreboot and Linux Advances

#51

Do people actually buy laptop/desktop from system76? I tried to price a laptop from them before and it was quite expensive compare to main stream vendors like Dell. Its cheaper just buy a OEM laptop and slap ubuntu on it.

Slapping ubuntu on an OEM laptop gets you absolutely no support from the vendor. If you're OK with that, more power to you if you want to go that route.

System76 does much more than just pre-install the OS. The below comment is from a system76 developer:

https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2019/04/system76-launch-pop-os-1...

"System76 laptops aren't rebranded. Clevo is a manufacturer of standardized chassis models for OEMs who lack the sales figures to warrant high volume orders. The individual OEMs get to benefit from lower prices because every OEM is pitching in together to allow Clevo to design and commit high volume orders of chassis on their behalf.

Using a Clevo chassis does not make your laptop a rebrand, in much the same way that a Gigabyte motherboard or Vivo desktop case does not automatically make your custom-built PC a rebranded Gigabyte/Vivo desktop. They manufacture the chassis (incl. battery and motherboard), and then distribute these to OEMs, who then select the components to assemble the chassis with. This also has the benefit of giving the customer a highly serviceable laptop.

This really isn't all that different from what Apple, Dell, Lenovo, HP, etc., are all doing. Many of them are even getting their laptops manufactured in the nearby vicinity of Clevo in a similar fashion. They're just a step closer to the designing stage of their chassis models, because they are able to purchase high volume orders by themselves. They still often outsource firmware development to third parties, rather than writing their own firmware for the hardware they sell.

In comparison to other Clevo-based sellers, System76 also goes the extra mile to select Linux-compatible components during assembly, writes patches to fix drivers in Linux for the hardware selected, flashes custom firmware on them, and are now even driving the process of writing open source firmware for them. You're not going to find Clevo writing open source firmware."

Re: System76 News: Coreboot and Linux Advances

#52
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I consider the cost acceptable given they don't just "slap Ubuntu on it". The hardware is curated towards 100% Linux compatibility, and their custom OS (admittedly an Ubuntu variant) is tweaked to suit the hardware. It's a good marriage and to some it's worth the extra cost. Look at it like you would a Macbook; Apple charges a premium but the benefit the buyer receives from that extra cost is hardware and software th…

Have you purchased a Lenovo lately? I've not had good luck with them. Despite 2 returns for service my Thinkpad T500 remained with a loose charging connector. My next Lenovo (notably not a Thinkpad) was a Y50 Ideapad. Audio to the speakers failed, the housing developed cracks at the hinge. The Ethernet connector broke (though used very little.) and now the SD card slot has failed. I'm giving Dell a try. You can buy t…

> WiFi finally seems to be working reliably

I got the XPS15 and installed Ubuntu 18.04 (best choice of laptop I could find that had an i9 8950hk, although only Windows is officially supported).

I had heard it was best to replace the Killer WiFi with an Intel mini card. However the Killer WiFi has been rock solid for me with Ubuntu (I have read that Windows has more problems with Killer WiFi than Linux!).

Regular Linux BIOS updates from Dell from within Ubuntu 18.04 - I'm a happy customer.

Edit: comment from elsewhere in this thread: "only three years ago I had to replace the default wireless card in my Dell XPS 13 because the broadcom one was flaky as hell in Linux"

Re: System76 News: Coreboot and Linux Advances

#53

Do people actually buy laptop/desktop from system76? I tried to price a laptop from them before and it was quite expensive compare to main stream vendors like Dell. Its cheaper just buy a OEM laptop and slap ubuntu on it.

I have used System76 systems and I have to say I didn't enjoy the experience. Dell has Project Sputnik although when I tried it out, the OEM Ubuntu OS (a fork of Ubuntu) didn't factory reset correctly wiping out the ability to recognize the GPU.

There's LAC Portland and they were super friendly, I might try to buy a computer from them if my computer dies (and ask for debian or something).

Re: System76 News: Coreboot and Linux Advances

#54
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AMD is a sponsor of coreboot according to https://www.coreboot.org/Sponsors Personally, I think the fundamental issue relates to IP. If the hardware design is made transparent by amazing and freely available documentation you invite infringement claims, particularly from IP trolls. (Threats from competitors are probably more existential, though, at least for large companies.) Often time companies will say that their…

I think it's that DRM doesn't work if they don't have a place that the user doesn't own, combined with that core is also used for system init because it's in the right place and you already want similar crypto you'd need for DRM for secure boot. There's not really any interesting IP in those cores from what we've seen.

But DRM only requires a secret key in the hardware. None of the implementing code needs to be secret, and indeed DRM that relies on opaque binary blobs or convoluted setup is useless.

If the issue is why Intel, AMD, NXP, etc aren't more transparent with their references, DRM doesn't really explain any of that. The only reason that makes sense to me other than sheer neglect is fear of IP infringement claims, a fear that any developer contemplating releasing their source code has surely struggled with. The patent landscape is a fscking field of indiscriminate landmines.

The "obviousness" test for patent eligibility is farcical. Just because the implementation of some driver seems obvious and straight-forward doesn't mean there doesn't exist a patent. Because of how technology develops--path dependency, foreseeable constraints--the vast majority of implementation details (including patented details) are obvious as understood by engineers, even if they've never encountered them before. But in practice obvious has effectively come to mean novel; were it any other way the vast majority of patents would never issue. And without omniscience you can never consistently know ahead of time whether something is novel or not; not if you're doing anything worthwhile. (Copyright is predicated on novelty, but copyright law permits independent development; patent law does not.)

Patent claims usually turn on minute implementation details. (A result, no doubt, of the surfeit of patents. Were it otherwise patents would stop industry completely rather than slowly bleeding it.) I'm not a patent lawyer, but I know that in general (in the U.S.) any claim needs to make a prima facie showing, which over the past several decades SCOTUS has required provide increasingly direct evidence. In as much as you raise the costs of discovering the evidence necessary to make a prima facie case, you've reduced your exposure to lawsuits.

If you're intent on targeting a particular company, and especially on targeting a particular company with a particular patent, opaque implementations are not much of a hurdle. But if you have a mountain of patents, the transactional costs of matching those patents to particular instances of [potential] infringement are quite significant. You not only need to expend effort to reverse engineer, but also effort to craft an argument to convince a court that your discoveries are legitimate. If an implementation is open it's much cheaper to accomplish both. Remember, labor is the single biggest expense in the Western world, and these types of activities are the epitome of labor intensive tasks. Reverse engineering a binary blob may be easy conceptually, but its absolutely costly in terms of labor, especially when it comes to pinning down the details in a way that matches particular claims in a patent.

The reverse is also true: if you have a mountain of products and components with significant exposure to infringement liability, opaqueness can substantially reduce your risk and effective liability. Even if exposure merely scales linearly with market or company size it suffices to explain the behavior of large companies, but I doubt it scales linearly. For one thing, larger companies are juicier targets, all else being equal, from the perspective of an individual claimant.

Re: System76 News: Coreboot and Linux Advances

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I consider the cost acceptable given they don't just "slap Ubuntu on it". The hardware is curated towards 100% Linux compatibility, and their custom OS (admittedly an Ubuntu variant) is tweaked to suit the hardware. It's a good marriage and to some it's worth the extra cost. Look at it like you would a Macbook; Apple charges a premium but the benefit the buyer receives from that extra cost is hardware and software th…

In terms of hardware support, the ArchLinux people seem to be doing more than anyone to document and tweak whatever laptop I look up. Kudos to them for doing so.

I’m a big fan of the ElementaryOS approach to user interface consistency. I hope they start being an option at build from System76.

Re: System76 News: Coreboot and Linux Advances

#56
post #52
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you purchased a Lenovo lately? I've not had good luck with them. Despite 2 returns for service my Thinkpad T500 remained with a loose charging connector. My next Lenovo (notably not a Thinkpad) was a Y50 Ideapad. Audio to the speakers failed, the housing developed cracks at the hinge. The Ethernet connector broke (though used very little.) and now the SD card slot has failed. I'm giving Dell a try. You can buy t…

> WiFi finally seems to be working reliably I got the XPS15 and installed Ubuntu 18.04 (best choice of laptop I could find that had an i9 8950hk, although only Windows is officially supported). I had heard it was best to replace the Killer WiFi with an Intel mini card. However the Killer WiFi has been rock solid for me with Ubuntu (I have read that Windows has more problems with Killer WiFi than Linux!). Regular Linu…

Yes, I think they fixed the Killer problems on Ubuntu first and pushed their changes upstream. That may be why it works on Debian (It's only been a week.) I can dual boot Ubuntu but for reasons not immediately obvious to me DNS queries were frequently timing out, making web browsing pretty slow.

I think that Debian is getting the firmware updates too, though for the last one it didn't apply so I just booted Ubuntu and it worked w/out issue. (It uses EFI which is another benefit of that.)

Re: System76 News: Coreboot and Linux Advances

#57
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I purchased one about 2 years ago. I am generally happy with purchase, but certainly don't feel like I saved any money. I did need to reinstall the operating system (and have since switched to Manjaro). The fan is loud and battery is lousy, but the hardware has not deteriorated other than the connection to the monitor needed tightening. They also don't void the warranty if you open up the machine and tinker, which wa…

You say you installed Manjaro, that probably explains your battery woes. Pop!_OS does alot good battery optimisation, I generally wouldn't recommend getting a System76 laptop if you don't like it out of the box.

Thanks for the suggestion. PopOS was not yet created when I purchased mine, it came with Ubuntu 16.04LTS. I used Ubuntu up until a couple months ago and decided to make the switch instead of upgrading to 18.04. Honestly I think my battery life has improved slightly but I haven't performed any benchmarking and my evaluation may be biased.

Re: System76 News: Coreboot and Linux Advances

#58

Do people actually buy laptop/desktop from system76? I tried to price a laptop from them before and it was quite expensive compare to main stream vendors like Dell. Its cheaper just buy a OEM laptop and slap ubuntu on it.

Yes, I just bought a Darter, (their new laptop model), after considering others, including Dell. I am very happy with the purchase. A decent case, fantastic keyboard, and PopOS on this machine is beautiful and trouble-free. Also, System76 provides excellent service and support.

Re: System76 News: Coreboot and Linux Advances

#60

Do people actually buy laptop/desktop from system76? I tried to price a laptop from them before and it was quite expensive compare to main stream vendors like Dell. Its cheaper just buy a OEM laptop and slap ubuntu on it.

>Its cheaper just buy a OEM laptop and slap ubuntu on it.

So far, yes. Once they start shipping coreboot, the balance changes. They provide something that no other OEM (other than chromebooks and purism atm) do.

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