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Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

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191–200 of 231 posts

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#191

Not to stoke a fire, but I just wondered how the same failure would be viewed if it was done by a Chinese or Indian Manufacturer. Immediately it would have reinforced a stereotype of outsourcing being cheap and that being the issue. When in reality the truth is that there are frauds, lazy and useless people everywhere on the planet.

It's BAU for Chinese manufacturers. The question is not whether they will try to save costs on materials, it's when and on which parts.

If you're outsourcing production, you have to check the goods regularly.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to build with high-quality American fakes, not high-quality Chinese fakes!

On the other hand, at least the American supplier was fined and someone went to prison. Fraudulent Chinese suppliers routinely escape justice altogether because they largely operate outside of US jurisdiction.

That's the essence of the issue exactly. There is fraud everywhere, but in most of the world fraud isn't a successful business model. In the PRC, it kind of is.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> many Isn't it basically just the UK?

Only if you think Canada and various American states are in the UK.

Where in the US can a non governmental entity charge someone with a crime?

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#194
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re engineering to protect against fraud then maybe you would make them different sizes? Or only make one kind of part?

That would be my first instinct as well. Atleast when I interned metallworking, the supervisor did have atleast one lesson where they talked about making sure components don't fit into places they shouldn't. If two gears on a machine have different requirements then they should be made to not fit into eachother's places. It makes maintenance easier since there is only 1 correct way to build the machine from any set o…

Sometimes that is not enough:

In this rocket malfunction, a part was installed upside down. It had arrows indicating the direction and only fit in its place in one orientation. Still, on finding that it didn't immediately fit a technician forced it in:

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/proton_glonass49.html#culprit

By July 13, investigators simulated the improper installation of the DUS angular velocity sensors on the actual hardware. As it turned out, it would be very difficult to do but not impossible. To achieve that personnel would need to use procedures and instruments not certified either by the design documentation or the installation instructions. As a result, the plate holding the sensors sustained damage. Yet, when the hardware recovered from the accident was delivered to GKNPTs Khrunichev, it was discovered that the nature of the damage to the plate had almost exactly matched the simulated version.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#195
post #16
post #2

It's amazing how companies in the US can cause a billion in damage, wasting years of highly talented people, put climate science years behind, and get a slap on the wrist. Yet, some kid carries a few grams of weed and goes to jail or gets killed by the cops.

Both of your assertions are exaggerations. 1) It is far from certain that the falsified test results "cause[d] a billion in damage." Press releases about settlements are not court judgments. At trial, the government would have to prove "but-for causation." For one of the failures, for example, the government would have to prove that the launch vehicle's faring would have opened fully had the aluminum met specificatio…

> 2) It's not typical for "kid[s]" to be put in prison for carrying "a few grams of weed." It might happen sometimes (in a country of 330 million people, everything that can happen will happen sometimes) but it's not typical.

Alabama Police Ruined a Couple's Lives Over $50 of Weed. Now the Charges Against Them Have Been Dropped

Greg and Teresa Almond filed a federal civil rights lawsuit against the Randolph County Sheriff's Department after it raided their house and seized their savings for a misdemeanor pot offense.

https://reason.com/2019/04/16/alabama-police-ruined-a-couple...

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#196
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Toyota / Lexus ?

He's referring to Toyota. They are globally recalling Toyota Corollas for failing torque converters. https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/toyota-2019-corolla-hatch... Clearly Toyota didn't know it was happening in their supply chain, but now they do.

That article is for CVT's, which don't use shiftable gears. Google-fu leads to this forum post from 2009, which references Acura directly:

https://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1473068&cid=30...

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#197

Chinese suppliers did this to a mining company in Australia. Put fucking asbestos brakes on the ore cars (train). Cost a fortune to clean up.

Chinese everything they make seems to be like this. The landfill now holds nearly everything I've bought from China over the decades, I now realize.

After reading the excellent book "How Asia Works," I went around my place inventorying the source of my possessions recently thinking it'd be full of stuff from China. But no.

True, I do have several things that are only one or two years old from China that aren't dead yet, and a number of older steel items from China that have in fact lasted ('cause you can't fake consumer steel - I always try to bend that stuff in the store. If it bends it gets bent back and goes back on the store shelf.) The exception: one ancient Neo2.

The vast majority of what I own now - other than clothes - isn't Chinese and is 30 or more years old. These are all items that predate the Chinese goods invasion in fact. Quality goods.

For example it turned out that all my (surviving) dishes were American Corelle, glasses French Duralex, Swedish chair, etc. etc. Yet I mostly bought Chinese goods all along. Nothing, except the Neo2 lasted, (except for all-steel items) and I bought that Neo2 used recently. The rest of what I wasted money on is Chinese landfilled junk now.

I grew up admiring China (my Grandmother saw Mao in person, at a banquet she attended in the Great Hall of the People, and liked everything about China she saw except for his wife's speech at that banquet.) No more. Please, let's just drop trade with China. For so many reasons. The race to the bottom is won and done.

I know, the original article was about defective American aluminum testing; and yes there are occasional problems with goods from everywhere, but China takes the cake - and its goods crowd out better, greener, more durable competition.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#198
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, at least the American supplier was fined and someone went to prison. Fraudulent Chinese suppliers routinely escape justice altogether because they largely operate outside of US jurisdiction.

That's the essence of the issue exactly. There is fraud everywhere, but in most of the world fraud isn't a successful business model. In the PRC, it kind of is.

Although fraud is no doubt rampant in Chinese industry, the penalties are... rather more severe. You had better make sure your scheme doesn't piss off the wrong people. The PRC's military and aerospace supply chains are probably in pretty good shape.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#199
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As I understand it, if a company actually goes to trial and is convicted, they are not allowed to operate anymore, hence the plea deals and fines. You know, I am a lawyer (a corporate one who freelances as a white collar crime journalist at that!) and I don't even know how this would work. I can't even think of a single criminal case against a corporation that I've reported on that went to trial. It just doesn't re…

Corporations are frequently enough charged with crimes to necessitate the existence of corporate lawyers (i.e. you). The discussion of whether corporate manslaughter should be a thing was never one that hinged on whether it would be unconstitutional... Just generally, I'm not buying this > After all, you can't charge a "person" with a crime if that "person" isn't there to defend themselves. especially since people ca…

To be clear I'm not saying a corporation can't be charged with a crime. Just that a corporation charged with a crime almost never goes to trial. And I don't know a single corporate attorney who has ever handled a criminal case for a corporation. We negotiate contracts, not plea agreements.

So while I'm not at all a criminal attorney (and I don't pretend to be an expert here) a defendant's presence at a criminal trial is first year law school stuff. A defendant absolutely must be present for the initial appearance. They can waive their right to appear (by not showing up once they've been charged) but criminal charges cannot be brought in absentia.

My point was that a corporation that ceased to exist likely wouldn't face charges the same way a deceased person wouldn't face charges because the government can't charge a defendant without their presence.

If the government could charge people with crimes without having them appear in court they surely would have tried and convicted Whitey Bulger long before he was caught and wouldn't have been so concerned with Julian Assange's extradition.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#200

Lucky it was only a $700million satellite in another application people could have died

If you value human time by $1 million per year then that is a waste of 700 man years or 8 people's worth. Of course they got paid and received "free" training for their job so it wasn't a complete waste but there certainly are better things to use those man years on, like a functioning satellite.

It may be better to use the statistical value of a human life defined by safety/enivronmental organizations, which for the US is currently about $10 million per citizen.

Going by that the satellite was worth about 70 lives, which is a bit under the amount of people killed by venomous animals each year in the US.

Edit: More random morbid facts - Annual automobile deaths amount to only 6% of Wyoming's population, but do economic damage equal 10x Wyoming's GDP.

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