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Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

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Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#91

Post by JoeAltmaier »

brianpgordon wrote: post #39
pseudolus wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The deferred prosecution agreement essentially means that as long as the SEI adheres to the financial terms of the plea agreement the government will eventually drop the charges [0]. That's an amazing deal in its generosity and I'm sure that the financial penalties levied are outweighed by the financial gain realized over the years of their fraudulent activity. The rationale for not pursuing the company for the full…

This is a worthwhile book that might help clear up some of your bewilderment at why corporate crime cases so often turn out so unsatisfactorily. https://www.amazon.com/Chickenshit-Club-Department-Prosecute... My personal TL;DR from a couple of years ago if you don't have the time to read the book: - It's very hard for prosecutors to secure a criminal conviction even in the most blatant cases of wrongdoing. - Prosecut…

But the civil case seems so easy - failure to deliver the right stuff over most of a decade. Should be possible to bankrupt this company over contract fraud?

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#92

Post by gnode »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #68
pseudolus wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The deferred prosecution agreement essentially means that as long as the SEI adheres to the financial terms of the plea agreement the government will eventually drop the charges [0]. That's an amazing deal in its generosity and I'm sure that the financial penalties levied are outweighed by the financial gain realized over the years of their fraudulent activity. The rationale for not pursuing the company for the full…

> rationale for not pursuing the company for the full $700 million dollars lost escapes me Satellites are usually insured. (Not sure about NASA protocol, though.) If that’s the case, the insurer will sue. Shareholder lawsuits will also, naturally, follow, as will suits from all the other customers. Agree, though, that it’s shocking nobody is going to jail in relation to a fraud guilty plea.

> it’s shocking nobody is going to jail in relation to a fraud guilty plea.

They are though. From the justice.gov article:

"Dennis Balius, the SPI testing lab supervisor, led a scheme to alter tests within SPI’s computerized systems and provide false certifications with the altered results to customers. Balius also instructed employees to violate other testing standards, such as increasing the speed of the testing machines or cutting samples in a manner that did not meet the required specifications. Balius pleaded guilty in July 2017 and was sentenced to three years in prison and ordered to pay over $170,000 in restitution."

You can't send SPI to jail though, because it isn't a human.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#93

Post by jve »

SpaceX also had failed a mission due to a 3rd party strut failing the spec.

> The strut that we believe failed was designed and material certified to handle 10,000 lbs of force, but failed at 2,000 lbs, a five-fold difference.

https://www.spacex.com/news/2015/07/20/crs-7-investigation-u...

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#94

Post by JudasGoat »

fratlas wrote: post #51
senectus1 wrote: post #49

Chinese suppliers did this to a mining company in Australia. Put fucking asbestos brakes on the ore cars (train). Cost a fortune to clean up.

Link to learn more?

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/politics/asbestos-fo...

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#95

Post by Eliezer »

caprese wrote: post #42
brianpgordon wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a worthwhile book that might help clear up some of your bewilderment at why corporate crime cases so often turn out so unsatisfactorily. https://www.amazon.com/Chickenshit-Club-Department-Prosecute... My personal TL;DR from a couple of years ago if you don't have the time to read the book: - It's very hard for prosecutors to secure a criminal conviction even in the most blatant cases of wrongdoing. - Prosecut…

I enjoyed that book, I felt it kind of just "ended" though. It had some interesting history and insights but then the pages just kind of ran out

Sometimes real life lacks a satisfying conclusion?

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#96

Post by derefr »

gnode wrote: post #92
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rationale for not pursuing the company for the full $700 million dollars lost escapes me Satellites are usually insured. (Not sure about NASA protocol, though.) If that’s the case, the insurer will sue. Shareholder lawsuits will also, naturally, follow, as will suits from all the other customers. Agree, though, that it’s shocking nobody is going to jail in relation to a fraud guilty plea.

> it’s shocking nobody is going to jail in relation to a fraud guilty plea. They are though. From the justice.gov article: "Dennis Balius, the SPI testing lab supervisor, led a scheme to alter tests within SPI’s computerized systems and provide false certifications with the altered results to customers. Balius also instructed employees to violate other testing standards, such as increasing the speed of the testing ma…

Theoretically you could sentence a corporation to community service. I.e., forcibly rewrite its charter into that of a social benefit corporation, where the social-benefit goals are “doing whatever the government says.” Sort of half-way between commandeering a resource and nationalizing a corporation.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#97

Post by daniel-s »

zackmorris wrote: post #85

As Nasa is a government agency, I wonder if lack of regulation and oversight played a hand in this. This sort of scenario is exactly why I'm concerned about the recent trend towards rampant free market economics and libertarianism. Those ideas have merit in certain situations, but also increase risk to the public as witnessed here by losses that are proportionately much higher than any efficiency savings. I'm also co…

Fraud is a crime. It has no place in a free (i.e. libertarian) society.

I believe fraud is seen by libertarians as a type of theft and theft is a crime in any society or body of thought that values property rights. Nonaggression towards others and respect for property rights are the top tenents of libertarianism.

Even Ayn Rand, queen of capitalism and profits said the purpose of the courts is:

> to protect your property and contracts from breach or fraud by others, and to settle disputes by rational rules, according to objective law.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#98

Post by morsmodr »

Not to stoke a fire, but I just wondered how the same failure would be viewed if it was done by a Chinese or Indian Manufacturer. Immediately it would have reinforced a stereotype of outsourcing being cheap and that being the issue. When in reality the truth is that there are frauds, lazy and useless people everywhere on the planet.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#99

Post by abakker »

gnode wrote: post #92
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rationale for not pursuing the company for the full $700 million dollars lost escapes me Satellites are usually insured. (Not sure about NASA protocol, though.) If that’s the case, the insurer will sue. Shareholder lawsuits will also, naturally, follow, as will suits from all the other customers. Agree, though, that it’s shocking nobody is going to jail in relation to a fraud guilty plea.

> it’s shocking nobody is going to jail in relation to a fraud guilty plea. They are though. From the justice.gov article: "Dennis Balius, the SPI testing lab supervisor, led a scheme to alter tests within SPI’s computerized systems and provide false certifications with the altered results to customers. Balius also instructed employees to violate other testing standards, such as increasing the speed of the testing ma…

>because it isn't a human.

This is especially interesting in the context of corporate personhood[1]. You can't send a corporation to jail, but you can disband it entirely, or prevent it from operating. A lot of the practical solutions try to leave badly behaving company operating, though, since if we shut them down there is a lot of collateral damage in the form of lost productivity in the economy and lost jobs. IANAL, but my opinion is that there needs to be a better non-nuclear option for an actual guilty conviction for corporations. As I understand it, if a company actually goes to trial and is convicted, they are not allowed to operate anymore, hence the plea deals and fines.

Please correct me if I am wrong, though.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#100

Post by jve »

naringas wrote: post #13

the best thing is how the "company" (or corporation) is to blame. so none of the actual individual humans who did this is at fault here. at worst they would be fired and go to work somewhere else. which is compeletely fine. and with a fine like that, this is just a "cost of doing business" for the corporation. maybe one day terribly criminal corporations should be forcefully disbanded as punishment.

Cost of doing business? See this:

> ...also agreed to plead guilty to one count of mail fraud and is barred from U.S. federal government contracting

Norsk Hydro just got new CEO. Immediatelly struck by virus, shutting down operations. Now this. From the article wording, looks like thay admit things. Good for them. But I can guess CEO todo list for this and next year.

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