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Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

japantimes.co.jp

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Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#81

Post by mafribe »

azernik wrote: post #79
stcredzero wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to Leonard Peikoff, the laws of the Weimar Republic which touched on Human Rights all had an "out" for the government to suspend rights in case of a national emergency or "for the common good." Is this accurate and is this still the case today?

Emergency powers were indeed reduced. But more importantly, the post-war constitution was not allowed to be amended in ways that would contradict its "liberal democratic basic order" (banning a rerun of the Enabling Act).

Emergency Acts (Notstandsgesetze) were passed in 1968.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Emergency_Acts

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#82

Post by tus87 »

I find Western criticism of Japan's legal system hilarious.

> Japanese prosecutors subject suspects to up to eight hours of daily questioning while they are detained in a bid to obtain a confession, shutting off access to their family and barring them from obtaining legal assistance during the questioning. And according to the popular narrative, it’s all done capriciously, with the nefarious machinations of the state lurking behind.

This is true in almost every western country except the US. England, Canada, Australia etc you have no right to a lawyer during questioning. Police will destroy and cover up evidence in attempt to frame people on a regular basis, and basically join the prosecution from day 1 instead of investigating crime. They seek certain sorts of convictions to please their politics masters. They much rather a rape conviction than a false accusation conviction for example. They will prosecute people against the weight of evidence, where in fact the only evidence is exculpatory.

Consider the case of Mark Pearson. Falsely accused of a rape after bumping into a woman in a subway station. Video evidence proved it wasn't possible, so police slowed down the footage to make it appear it did happen. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/cps-slowed-down-...

Now if this same thing happened in Japan, if they saw the video footage that basically proved it was a false accusation, do you think they would have acted as capriciously as UK police, or maybe charged the woman instead?

The narcissism of the Western political/legal class knows no bounds.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#83

Post by mindgam3 »

The real mindfuck here isn't just that Japanese law allows the authorities to question you during detention (before being charged with anything), all day every day, with no attorney present.

Nor is it that they can restrict access to the outside world, only allowing you to speak to family for max 20m a day, with a translator + officer present at all times.

No, the real kicker is that the clock for the 20-30 day detention period starts fresh every time, for each charge they want to investigate. This means that they can essentially keep people in detention for as long as they want by having a list of charges and "investigating" them one at a time.

If you're used to things like due process, "give me my phone call", etc, the Japanese justice system is quite difficult to wrap your head around.

I have no idea if Ghosn is guilty of what he is accused of. But there are massive pressures to extract confessions from people in his position. And forced confessions reduce the legitimacy of the entire justice system.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#84

Post by rayiner »

lostlogin wrote: post #61
mises wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At some point, foreign nations are different and we just have to deal with it. We got habeas corpus and other processes from the Magna Carta back in the eleventh century B.C., and the resultant English Common Law shaped the justice systems of America and other nations. It is not fair of us to expect all justice systems to align with ours. For an extreme example of this issue, look at the Middle East. They have simply…

> For an extreme example of this issue, look at the Middle East. They have simply never taken to democracy. This isn’t helped by foreign interference in every election they have. Even the borders, arbitrary lines drawn up by colonial powers, contribute to the problem as the forced groupings don’t suit anyone except for some colonial empire a long time ago. If the meddling stopped for a decent duration democracy might…

Maybe, maybe not. Counter example. Bangladesh (where I’m from) was created in 1972 with a constitution embodying various western style principles, including secularism. The country was organized along pretty sensible geographic/linguistic/religious borders, and there has been no western meddling with its elections. Regardless, over the decades the people have voted to make Islam the official religion and generally cut back on secularism, free speech, and democracy. One of the relatively few bright spots is the Bangladesh Supreme Court—a western transplantation that e.g. conducts its business and issues opinions in English. Americans love to blame the west for everything. I find it fairly patronizing.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#85

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

teachrdan wrote: post #57
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Japan is a really weird country, on one hand it's the safest country How do you know it is safe if you can easily be wrongly convicted, but no statistic about the country shows that?

I believe they are referring to Japan's low rate of violent crime: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Japan#Statistics

Which is exactly the error I have been pointing out? Or are you saying that people being forced into prison for no fault of their own is being counted as violent crime in that statistic?

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#86

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

hamilyon2 wrote: post #58
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Japan is a really weird country, on one hand it's the safest country How do you know it is safe if you can easily be wrongly convicted, but no statistic about the country shows that?

Criminals think seven, no, seventy times before doing anything that could possibly upset japan national on Japanese soil. This is how it is that safe.

Congrats on completely missing the point.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#87

Post by [deleted] »

tus87 wrote: post #82

I find Western criticism of Japan's legal system hilarious. > Japanese prosecutors subject suspects to up to eight hours of daily questioning while they are detained in a bid to obtain a confession, shutting off access to their family and barring them from obtaining legal assistance during the questioning. And according to the popular narrative, it’s all done capriciously, with the nefarious machinations of the state…

[deleted]

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#88

Post by stcredzero »

mises wrote: post #76
stcredzero wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At some point, foreign nations are different and we just have to deal with it. Inherent human rights are universal. The closer the world comes to this ideal, the better life is for more people. For an extreme example of this issue, look at the Middle East. They have simply never taken to democracy, and a good number of people are of the opinion it is simply an issue with their culture. According to the level of democ…

> Inherent human rights are universal. No, they are not. This reflects a bias to believing that your own ideas and values are best. The only value that is universal is power. > the... countries with the highest scores are Israel... I'm not sure what this is meant to argue. It is merely a listing of the countries in a certain area with the highest levels of democracy. > they are over a dozen generations behind the wes…

The only value that is universal is power.

Most of history is dominated by such "might makes right" thinking, and much of human history is dark. It's universal inherent human rights which are the outlier, and which have contributed to the outlier of prosperity and individual human well being we have in the US today.

I'm not sure what this is meant to argue. It is merely a listing of the countries in a certain area with the highest levels of democracy.

I'm not arguing. Merely informing.

Further reflection of your condescending attitude.

?? I think you are projecting.

Who are you to say they are "behind"?

They have ideological/philosophical ideas which the West abandoned well over a dozen generations ago, and for good reason, because those ideas have untenable epistemological problems.

I believe in liberty, and would suppose you do as well, but what right have we to tell others what is right?

Given Freedom of Speech, I believe everyone should be able to express their opinion. Then, there is also freedom of association. It's better to convince than coerce. I think we both agree on that.

Democracy may or may not take hold, but it is not intrinsically good.

Individual human rights are intrinsically good. This tends to result in Democracy, but I would grant that the relationship ends there.

Democracy is not a universal value, and cannot be forced on others. That is moral imperialism.

Sure. Forcing people to be democratic isn't democratic. Nor is it respecting individual human rights. I think we should be doing our part to convince others, however.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#89

Post by pm24601 »

anonu wrote: post #36

Ghosn's handling by the Japanese is utterly despicable. No habeas corpus ... no due process. Ghosn is credited with a stunning corporate turnaround and creating billions of dollars of value for a Japanese company and the Japanese people. I am certain foreign corporations who do business in Japan are thinking long and hard about the implications and potential risks of operating there. To be clear - I am not saying Gho…

What Ghosn is experiencing is identical to what the US justice system inflicts on non-wealthy people.

Poor people and even "middle class" cannot afford to be accused of a crime. It is incredibly, impossibly expensive to afford justice.

In the US, it is far cheaper to accept a plea deal for a crime - even if innocent. Look at the US numbers for accused that actually "get their day in court".

Nolo estimates over 90% of cases never go to trial (https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-criminal-cases-a... ) This sounds remarkably close to the Japanese numbers.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#90

Post by pm24601 »

deugtniet wrote: post #2

I find it interesting how Japan and Germany both have a constitution that was essentially written by Americans after the second world war. But there is a big difference in civil liberties between these countries. E.G. If the police charge you in Japan, there is very little chance not being sentenced to something (or taken hostage). Compared to Germany where you would have a much fairer trial.

Or the US where only the wealthy can afford a defense.
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