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Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release

nature.com

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Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release

#71

Post by freeflight »

ThomPete wrote: post #60

Again a speculative article. “Might” is the important word in that article and Might” is not the word you use in scientifically demonstrated claims. This debate have become so ideological that all reason has left the room a long time ago. Show me scientifically demonstrated consequences not just speculated consequences we cant deal with, then ill rally behind you until then i am quite confident in my non-alarmist pos…

You are asking for absolutes in science, which is something that does not exist because science is not dogma, thus open to corrections, which is inherently opposed to making absolute statements.

That's why scientific statements use probabilities and words like "might", it has nothing to do with "not demonstrated" but everything with admitting that humans are fallible beings and there's always a margin of error.

Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release

#72

Post by bryanlarsen »

A practical plan for limiting carbon emissions:

1. Carbon tax 2. Import tariff at the border equivalent to the carbon tax on carbon used in production, plus an admin fee. But only on products from countries without their own carbon tax or equivalent.

1. This can be adopted unilaterally, but would probably work best if adopted by a group of nations at the beginning.

2. Does not require the near impossible task of requiring world wide agreement at the beginning. The hope is that it will encourage everybody to join the club eventually

3. Structuring as a tax rather than quotas mostly eliminates the fairness problem between developed / developing

Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release

#73

Post by legostormtroopr »

ForHackernews wrote: post #2

This is an emergency; it's well past time we started acting like it: https://rebellion.earth/

Yeah - its about time someone started a focused group dedicated to climate change...

> There will be a Puerto Rico contingency to the May Day Protests in NY that will create a specific performance relevant to the fight against debt and the 121 years of colonialism against Puerto Rico more generally.

https://rebellion.earth/event/debt-is-a-hurricane-puerto-ric...

Well, looks like another well intention green movement has been hijacked

Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release

#75

Post by chewz »

kot-behemoth wrote: post #61
chewz wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you. I am 50, no children. I have spent last 10 years travelling, sailing the ocean, hiking in jungles, diving in the reefs that would be extinct soon. I live in a climate where some moderate warming will make more pleasant. I do not care what will happen beyond 20 years ahead. Maybe even less. So why would I inconvinience myself? Why worry? People will get exactly what they deserve. On the other hand so…

"People will get exactly what they deserve". What have children born today done to "deserve" the devastating consequences that are going to unfold? Your view is fascinatingly self-centered and ruthless.

> Your view is fascinatingly self-centered and ruthless.

Perhaps but I haven't seen any of my middle class friends taking their children to school on a bike or by public transport. And when I point that it is possible it is always "Meh, it is more convinient in my car and I am above that".

If people with children do not care why should I?

Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release

#76

Post by richardhod »

baruchthescribe wrote: post #31
ahmedalsudani wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That graph literally shows the average for 1981-2000 and the last 4 years, which are consistently and significantly below the average.

You would have go back and look at the whole century to see that it's just part of the normal cycle.

You are wrong, and trolling: https://www.carbonbrief.org/guest-post-piecing-together-arct...

Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release

#77

Post by richardhod »

baruchthescribe wrote: post #36
mattygh wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it is: https://nsidc.org/cryosphere/arctic-meteorology/climate_chan... "Over the past 30 years, it has warmed more than any other region on earth"

Ask NOAA for their temperature records going back a century and see if it's normal and cyclical instead of their cherry picked data from 1979 onwards.

You are wrong. Cease trolling. https://www.carbonbrief.org/guest-post-piecing-together-arct...

Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release

#78

Post by LoSboccacc »

A2017U1 wrote: post #65
LoSboccacc wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> need for urgent action funny because most contaminants in water and air come from China and India what is the UK environmental minister going to do about that? unless the rest of the world agrees on the need on both regulate local industry and heavily tax import from unregulated countries nothing is going to change for the planet situation the rest are mostly feel-good measures that carry increased cost on the popu…

China and India emit far less per person than any Western country while simultaneously producing the most carbon intensive goods for Westerners and having that counted on their tally . Unless you are willing to flat out say that you think an Indian or Chinese life isn't worth a Western one this line of debate falls apart. Who produced the vast majority of emissions up until 20 years ago? It's rank hypocrisy.

feels like you all read only half of the comment before getting blinded by righteous outrage

the whole point I was making is that local policies end up with outsourced pollution, so it's an issue to be either tackeld internationally, which is unrealistic, or coupled with local protectionism, to the same effect of projecting the policy outward

Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release

#79

Post by roenxi »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #64
roenxi wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your first point of success is getting the Environment Minister to publicly commit to being pro-environment, you're working to a very low bar. It sounds like a problem that might be heading for a government committee rather than actual action. This thing you call a 'rather extremist position' is a traditional position industrial societies have held since the industrial revolution in the late 18th century. Exploiti…

It's the current extreme right Tory party. One would normally expect their Environment Minister to pretend the protests and environment don't exist. Any admission is remarkable - but useless. For action we need a change of government. We've already had a select committee on climate that was unequivocal about what action and urgency was needed. > This thing you call a 'rather extremist position' is a traditional posit…

> A more unlikely pair to promote such regulation I can't imagine.

And that is your hint that you have misunderstood how the right of politics works, including the extreme right.

There is no lobby that wants to destroy the environment because they don't like it. If someone comes along with a credible threat to people, they act on it.

The issue is that the ozone layer burning away poses a very clear threat to people where the cost of inaction obviously exceeds the cost of dealing with it. Global warming poses a very real threat to the environment and a high likelihood of change. It remains opaque whether the costs of dealing with that change are higher than preventing that change. We can guarantee the academics have no idea on that one economically speaking; their record of forecasting in that arena is just as bad as everyone elses.

Historically, the proposed costs of preventing change have been enormous. And, personal pet peeve, the people advocating that it is an emergency seem to implicitly accept that the cost of nuclear is even higher than the cost of AGW. So it can't be that threatening to them.

Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release

#80

Post by LoSboccacc »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #66
LoSboccacc wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> need for urgent action funny because most contaminants in water and air come from China and India what is the UK environmental minister going to do about that? unless the rest of the world agrees on the need on both regulate local industry and heavily tax import from unregulated countries nothing is going to change for the planet situation the rest are mostly feel-good measures that carry increased cost on the popu…

> come from China and India Utterly irrelevant. Everywhere needs to take action to solve the issue, USA, China and India especially. Both China and India are investing heavily in renewables, though clearly they have some way to go. The odd one out, presently, is the USA. I expect that to change soon enough. Doesn't matter who goes first, who does more, or when, just that everyone takes enough action. You'll be able t…

> someone has to go first

but that's the point, European countries have done a lot and the only result was most pollution intensive production was pushed abroad while destroying local productions chains, the lower classes and raising the cost of living to the point the middle class is unable to build the saving to promote healthy growth, meanwhile the planet is still as fucked as it were

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