Earlier quoted context omitted.
Here's a question: What if I don't care about "future generations"?
I agree with you. I am 50, no children. I have spent last 10 years travelling, sailing the ocean, hiking in jungles, diving in the reefs that would be extinct soon. I live in a climate where some moderate warming will make more pleasant. I do not care what will happen beyond 20 years ahead. Maybe even less. So why would I inconvinience myself? Why worry? People will get exactly what they deserve. On the other hand so…
Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release
61–70 of 133 posts
Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release
#62The recommendation for arboreal permafrost is to remove all the trees because grassland tundra hard freezes easier than forests, and this is necessary to maintain soil stability in the summer months. And to do so, reintroducing large megafauna herds that destroy trees are necessary, potentially with a mammoth/elephant hybrid; or with logging. Interestingly, large managed herds of grazing animals is a solution to gras…
[0] https://www.lonelyplanet.com/news/2017/03/23/ice-age-ecosyst...
[1] https://gizmodo.com/scientists-could-soon-resurrect-the-wool...
Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The most conservative scientific estimate that the Earth’s temperature will rise 1 to 7 degrees in the next 30 years, said Brown." This quote seems suspicious. The only place I see it is in this AP article, as a quote from this one person, and from a bunch of denialist websites that link to this article. I couldn't find any original source for the number (or any indication whether it is Fahrenheit or Centigrade, wh…
Noel Brown was the director of the UN Environmental Program in North America. He's going to be sourcing whatever internal figures they're working with. And yeah, given that he is the directory of the program in North America, I expect you're right that he was referencing fahrenheit and not celsius. I assumed celsius as he was described simply as a "senior UN Environment official." Given he directed the program in Nor…
He was the head of the New York Office. I'm not sure those two things are synonyms.
Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
> inconveniencing [1][2] the very people you are attempting to persuade (the voting public) is not a strategy that is likely to work Funny. Seems like it's working, remarkably quickly, to me: Michael Gove, the current Environment Minister, met with the protesters and accepted the need for urgent action, and other points. Far more than might be expected from the rather extremist position of today's Tory party. The opp…
If your first point of success is getting the Environment Minister to publicly commit to being pro-environment, you're working to a very low bar. It sounds like a problem that might be heading for a government committee rather than actual action. This thing you call a 'rather extremist position' is a traditional position industrial societies have held since the industrial revolution in the late 18th century. Exploiti…
We've already had a select committee on climate that was unequivocal about what action and urgency was needed.
> This thing you call a 'rather extremist position' is a traditional position industrial societies have held
No, that really isn't true. The extremist position is continuing regardless in the face of overwhelming evidence. Not acting back in the 19th before there was any knowledge or evidence is not really comparable.
It was Thatcher and Reagan that did so much to get the agreement for world phase out of CFCs in 1987. A more unlikely pair to promote such regulation I can't imagine.
Thatcher was remarkably well informed in the earliest days of climate science. Also one of the first to call for global action on climate. So despite being of an anti-regulation mindset she was happy to promote and implement strong regulation to save our skins. From her speech to the UN in 1989:
"What we are now doing to the world … is new in the experience of the Earth. It is mankind and his activities that are changing the environment of our planet in damaging and dangerous ways. The result is that change in future is likely to be more fundamental and more widespread than anything we have known hitherto. Change to the sea around us, change to the atmosphere above, leading in turn to change in the world's climate, which could alter the way we live in the most fundamental way of all.
"The environmental challenge that confronts the whole world demands an equivalent response from the whole world. Every country will be affected and no one can opt out. Those countries who are industrialised must contribute more to help those who are not."
She lost interest, or time, for the environment later in her premiership as it became ever more inept on most issues, caught up with in-party fighting (often EU related), and stupid ideas like poll tax. Yet her early and mid term record on climate and pollution is better than any since.
> we shouldn't put the environment ahead of the poor until we've exhausted every other option.
The poor will be more severely affected by climate changes than anyone.
Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
> inconveniencing [1][2] the very people you are attempting to persuade (the voting public) is not a strategy that is likely to work Funny. Seems like it's working, remarkably quickly, to me: Michael Gove, the current Environment Minister, met with the protesters and accepted the need for urgent action, and other points. Far more than might be expected from the rather extremist position of today's Tory party. The opp…
> need for urgent action funny because most contaminants in water and air come from China and India what is the UK environmental minister going to do about that? unless the rest of the world agrees on the need on both regulate local industry and heavily tax import from unregulated countries nothing is going to change for the planet situation the rest are mostly feel-good measures that carry increased cost on the popu…
Unless you are willing to flat out say that you think an Indian or Chinese life isn't worth a Western one this line of debate falls apart. Who produced the vast majority of emissions up until 20 years ago? It's rank hypocrisy.
Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
> inconveniencing [1][2] the very people you are attempting to persuade (the voting public) is not a strategy that is likely to work Funny. Seems like it's working, remarkably quickly, to me: Michael Gove, the current Environment Minister, met with the protesters and accepted the need for urgent action, and other points. Far more than might be expected from the rather extremist position of today's Tory party. The opp…
> need for urgent action funny because most contaminants in water and air come from China and India what is the UK environmental minister going to do about that? unless the rest of the world agrees on the need on both regulate local industry and heavily tax import from unregulated countries nothing is going to change for the planet situation the rest are mostly feel-good measures that carry increased cost on the popu…
Utterly irrelevant. Everywhere needs to take action to solve the issue, USA, China and India especially. Both China and India are investing heavily in renewables, though clearly they have some way to go. The odd one out, presently, is the USA. I expect that to change soon enough.
Doesn't matter who goes first, who does more, or when, just that everyone takes enough action.
You'll be able to level the same criticism against any of the first countries that start inching toward acknowledging and starting to change the system. Still doesn't matter. Even if it's not yet enough. Only the end result does. Maybe it will eventually come to sanctions and closing trade to nations that aren't doing enough.
Simply put, someone has to go first, the first step is never enough.
Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release
#67To the meat: > We estimate that abrupt permafrost thawing in lowland lakes and wetlands, together with that in upland hills, could release between 60 billion and 100 billion tonnes of carbon by 2300.
Only goes to show how we're the culprit here.
Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
> And I think we can start this today. We need to focus on accuracy above any and everything else. When you want to enact global change you first need to establish yourself as a reliable authority. Is anyone making more accurate predictions? Most people that disagree with NASA seem to saying anything from it's fake news to blaming other sources. How do you explain the observed warming? > The most conservative scienti…
No, nobody is making accurate predictions right now and that's the fundamental problem. We want to enact change on future predictions, but the models we're using to predict things have a history that's shown them to be unreliable. Each time a prediction fails to pass it ends up undermining the entire system of climate modeling more and more. We can't expect national bodies to engage in anything other convenient chang…
Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
> inconveniencing [1][2] the very people you are attempting to persuade (the voting public) is not a strategy that is likely to work Funny. Seems like it's working, remarkably quickly, to me: Michael Gove, the current Environment Minister, met with the protesters and accepted the need for urgent action, and other points. Far more than might be expected from the rather extremist position of today's Tory party. The opp…
None of those are actual action that could be seen in the overall CO2 emission levels, though.
Surprisingly the UK has done remarkably well on climate over the last decade, compared to many. Emissions have steadily fallen.
Normally demos, regardless of scale, have politicians pretending they didn't happen at all.
I'm inclined to think all they need to do is keep at it.
Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
Arctic sea ice is also long-term cyclical and has no relationship to carbon dioxide. It's currently the same thickness as it was 60 years ago.
This is complete, unmitigated bullshit, and anyone with a pulse, the ability to do a couple searches, and an 8th grade reasoning ability not completed blinded by "global warming is a librul conspiracy!!!" could figure this out. Just stop.
http://psc.apl.uw.edu/research/projects/arctic-sea-ice-volum...