I Can’t Answer Standardized Test Questions About My Own Poems (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: I Can’t Answer Standardized Test Questions About My Own Poems (2017)

#331

Post by Wowfunhappy » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 2:01 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #289

ascar wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some things seemed so far fetched, so random, so made up. And yet it was supposed to be _the_ right answer. When I offered another one, even knowing the official one but disagreeing, I was graded as failing. I absolutely agree with this. This was a constant source of frustration for me in literature classes. I enjoyed exploring alternative solutions and answers. Most science teachers encouraged that, even though th…

I think that part of the article actually perfectly captures why the author's argument is wrong. Nobody cares why she put the stanza break where she did. That's not what the question is asking. The question is asking about the objective effect of the stanza break in the context of the poem. All the student is being asked to do is recognize that there is an (objective) shift in subject from one stanza to the other, an…

Before I read the answer, I guessed it was C, even though I hadn't read the poem—because it's the only logical statement about what breaking a poem into two stanzas can do.

Re: I Can’t Answer Standardized Test Questions About My Own Poems (2017)

#332

Post by rayiner » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 2:01 PM UTC

radford-neal wrote: post #306

rayiner wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a reading test, not an art test. Here, whatever "art" is in the poem, there is also text with plain, objective meaning and discernible structure. The test is directed to the latter, not the former. And that is, by far, the more important thing to teach children. An informed citizenry in a democracy doesn't need art. They do need to be able to convey their thoughts in a structured, clear manner in writing.

If that's the objective, then give them a piece of technical writing, and then ask them whether the nuts should be screwed tight before or after the wooden pieces are put in their slots. I think we all know why they're using poetry, though. They want to PRETEND to be testing ability at deep literary criticism.

These tests also usually include scientific articles that are used to test whether students can figure out basic facts presented in an article. But that's only one part of reading comprehension. Students also must be able to understand the structure of the text, themes, use of devices like metaphors and similes, etc. These are higher-level concepts, but still objective ones. And they are present in all types of writing, not only technical articles. This particular set of questions is directed at evaluating those skills.

The tests don't purported to be "testing ability at deep literary criticism." The kids aren't learning poetry, they're reading poetry to help develop general reading comprehension skills. If you look at the STAARS curriculum for Grade 8, the tested skills include:

> Students understand, make inferences and draw conclusions about the structure and elements of poetry and provide evidence from text to support their understanding.

That's exactly what the questions are asking about: the structure and elements of the poem.

Re: I Can’t Answer Standardized Test Questions About My Own Poems (2017)

#333

Post by redblacktree » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 2:05 PM UTC

ubermonkey wrote: post #320

sametmax wrote: post #234

I always though how silly it was for teachers to pretend they got the correct answer in a text analysis of a century old author. Apparently it's even true for authors that are still alive. Some things seemed so far fetched, so random, so made up. And yet it was supposed to be _the_ right answer. When I offered another one, even knowing the official one but disagreeing, I was graded as failing. Hell, I'm pretty certai…

>I always though how silly it was for teachers to pretend they got the correct answer in a text analysis of a century old author. Some elements of analysis are verifiable, like when someone provides meaningful context around lines in Shakespeare, but once you get past very elementary discussions of literature the notion of "right answer" is kind of over. My primary degree is literature; above dumb-freshman courses, t…

No OP, but I read his thesis that low-level courses should also be putting the "emphasis on analytical thinking about the text," but instead focuses on the "supposed correctness of the analysis"

I don't see that your comment interferes with his thesis at all.

Re: I Can’t Answer Standardized Test Questions About My Own Poems (2017)

#334

Post by bluGill » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 2:10 PM UTC

TallGuyShort wrote: post #286

jtms wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was in the gifted program when I was in elementary school and I don’t recommend it. It took a kid like me who was already prone to social isolation and isolated him further. I voluntarily left the program after 2 years and was playing catch up socially and I wasn’t any better off academically. Don’t put your kids in that program.

I think there's a right and a wrong way to run these programs. Some schools just pick a couple of outliers and make it obvious they're outliers. If you're going to group some kids by ability for some classes, do it to everyone. Yes, a few kids are really advanced. A few others are almost there. Don't make the first group so uniquely isolated at the expenses of making the second group miss out on similar opportunities…

There is one more thing that is important that most people miss: a "gifted" student (whatever that means) mixed in with the rest challenges the other students to do better.

Re: I Can’t Answer Standardized Test Questions About My Own Poems (2017)

#335

Post by rayiner » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 2:16 PM UTC

mannykannot wrote: post #321

rayiner wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Question 35 is testing whether you know how "metaphors" work. B is correct because "putting toys back into the chest" is a metaphor for the weekend's fun-and-games being over. C cannot be correct because it's referring to the text's literal meaning ("organizing things") without giving effect to the "metaphor" call-out in the prompt.

Maybe we are looking at different versions of the article (or did you intend to reply to ascar?) In the test quoted at https://www.huffpost.com/entry/standardized-tests-are-so-bad... , Question 35 is this one: 35 The imagery in lines 16 through 19 helps the reader understand – A the shift in the speaker’s attitude B the speaker’s unpleasantness C why the speaker has no friends D what the speaker thinks of others

Sorry, I thought you meant "next question" in my link, not the article. As to Question 35 in the article: that is testing if you know what "imagery" means. What is imagery? It's using words to convey a sensory impression or feeling. B is the only one that describes a sensory impression or feeling.

> A the shift in the speaker’s attitude

It's not A, because the cited lines contain no reference to any shift. The rest of the poem implies a shift or mood swing, but the cited portion helps you understand the current mood, not the shift.

> B the speaker’s unpleasantness

> C why the speaker has no friends

C assumes facts not in evidence. The poem doesn't say the author has no friends. It says she is in a mood where she could not attract friends. The imagery is directed specifically to the author's unpleasantness. One can speculate that, as a result, she has no friends, but that's not necessarily true. B is the more direct and thus better answer.

> D what the speaker thinks of others

The text is talking about the author, not others. You can speculate what the author thinks about others, but that's not what the question is asking.

Re: I Can’t Answer Standardized Test Questions About My Own Poems (2017)

#336

Post by sametmax » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 2:26 PM UTC

ubermonkey wrote: post #320

sametmax wrote: post #234

I always though how silly it was for teachers to pretend they got the correct answer in a text analysis of a century old author. Apparently it's even true for authors that are still alive. Some things seemed so far fetched, so random, so made up. And yet it was supposed to be _the_ right answer. When I offered another one, even knowing the official one but disagreeing, I was graded as failing. Hell, I'm pretty certai…

>I always though how silly it was for teachers to pretend they got the correct answer in a text analysis of a century old author. Some elements of analysis are verifiable, like when someone provides meaningful context around lines in Shakespeare, but once you get past very elementary discussions of literature the notion of "right answer" is kind of over. My primary degree is literature; above dumb-freshman courses, t…

It doesn't. I just think I would have liked you as a teacher, and most I met didn't not have your point of view.

Re: I Can’t Answer Standardized Test Questions About My Own Poems (2017)

#337

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 2:27 PM UTC

_8vlp wrote: post #327

rayiner wrote: post #278

The whole poem and questions are here: https://www.jiskha.com/questions/1027961/Midnight-by-Sara-Ho... . Frankly, I think the author is being a bit disingenuous. Question 5 for example: What function does the stanza break serve? She says she put it where it is because she's a performance poet and thought it should go there. One, that isn't the question. The question isn't asking about the author's subjective state of…

If these tests are about text comprehension and not interpretation of art, why use poems then? Wouldn't an advertisement, a legal text or simply a newspaper article serve a better purpose? I've written some (bad) poems and asked people to tell me what it means for them and got some answers that are wildly different from my own. For example: I once described the sunrise as a "bleeding ceiling of the world", mainly bec…

[deleted]

Re: I Can’t Answer Standardized Test Questions About My Own Poems (2017)

#338

Post by sametmax » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 2:28 PM UTC

everdrive wrote: post #290

sametmax wrote: post #234

I always though how silly it was for teachers to pretend they got the correct answer in a text analysis of a century old author. Apparently it's even true for authors that are still alive. Some things seemed so far fetched, so random, so made up. And yet it was supposed to be _the_ right answer. When I offered another one, even knowing the official one but disagreeing, I was graded as failing. Hell, I'm pretty certai…

>And as a kid, you certainly can't say a classic author is not interesting. You can't say the text is boring, that you don't see talent in it, that you didn't learn anything from it. It has been validated by society, hence it's good. Now you have to say why you think it is, even if you don't. Actually you have to say what you know what the status quo is, which means repeating something you read elsewhere instead of f…

I'm all about teaching about societal approval as long as it's labelled as such and put in perspective. I think that actually it would have helped me a lot to have it labelled that way: I would have respected the teacher more, and learned about the way humans work sooner.

Re: I Can’t Answer Standardized Test Questions About My Own Poems (2017)

#339

Post by isostatic » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

elliekelly wrote: post #295

matwood wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate the classics, but I would always get in trouble in school for asking how the teacher knew this is what the author meant. Even before I knew what a skeptic was, I was a skeptic. :) I also was not being a smart ass. Many authors have additional writings that add color to the writing being studied.

> I also was not being a smart ass. It really bothers me that you even have to clarify something like this. Students should be skeptical of what they're being told. That doesn't make a student a smart ass - it makes them a critical thinker. Teachers who take offense when their "authority" is innocently questioned are doing a massive disservice to their students.

There's two types of people who ask the questions

1) Those that want a response that they can consider. These are critical thinkers.

2) Those that don't care what the response is. These are smart asses.

In schools the latter are far more common, and far more likely to speak out

Re: I Can’t Answer Standardized Test Questions About My Own Poems (2017)

#340

Post by sametmax » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

elliekelly wrote: post #295

matwood wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate the classics, but I would always get in trouble in school for asking how the teacher knew this is what the author meant. Even before I knew what a skeptic was, I was a skeptic. :) I also was not being a smart ass. Many authors have additional writings that add color to the writing being studied.

> I also was not being a smart ass. It really bothers me that you even have to clarify something like this. Students should be skeptical of what they're being told. That doesn't make a student a smart ass - it makes them a critical thinker. Teachers who take offense when their "authority" is innocently questioned are doing a massive disservice to their students.

To be fair, I have been guilty of being a smart ass, and I can totally imagine other people being one when confronted to bullshit.

It's not a productive reaction, and you grow out of it, but it's not a surprising one.