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It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

nytimes.com

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Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#91

Post by tux1968 »

salawat wrote: post #76
SomeHacker44 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In college Mandarin courses we were required to learn 30 words a day. That was a nearly impossible task for 20 year old me and required three hours of study a day on top of the 1:20 or 1:50 long daily class. To think a person more than twice that age can learn 30 words a day is, to my aged brain, ludicrous. Maybe it’s just me, but my learning ability is now vastly below what it was in my teens or even college.

So, it isn't actually. I did a short foray into learning Morse Code, and I ran into what I found to be the biggest barrier to learning new languages. The bloody lookup table phenomena. What happens is your mental representation maps the Morse sequence->your primary language character->whatever the message then actually means. This is a very high overhead mental process, and one specifically advised against by fluent…

That's true, yet you have to go through a lot of Morse -> letter before it becomes automatic enough to advance to the stage where you can go from Morse -> meaning. There's no alternative really, you can't just wish yourself into automatically divining the meanings, you have to put in the hours of incremental training before it all becomes second nature.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#93

Post by bpyne »

Aromasin wrote: post #68
atemerev wrote: post #49

The problem with French is that the French are very sensitive to mistakes. If I speak bad English (I am Russian), everybody is still happy, the worst thing can happen is I’ll get corrected, and in 99.9% of cases it’s not even that. If I speak bad French with a French person... may God have mercy upon my soul. Especially if I forgot to say bonjour/bonsoir first (abomination! burn the heretic!)

I think in part it's due to very few native English speakers being multi-lingual. Rudely correcting someone on their second-language is a faux-pas for most people in the UK. From my experience, people will try to be helpful and constructive with their criticism - because lets be honest, how many native English speakers could say much more than Hello, Please and Thank You in anything but English? Conversely, I can see…

You make a fair point. I can understand fear about a loss of cultural identity. But, speaking from a strategic standpoint, if you want to preserve the language, you need to get more people speaking it. Corrections can come later. It's like a child learning a musical instrument. Rare is the child who can tolerate being stopped every few seconds with corrections. But, teach a child to play a song in a rudimentary way on the instrument and you capture their interest. Once interest is captured, you can start teaching proper technique.

And yes, we of the US butchered English. I have no qualm with that statement. We also can't get metric right. At least we drive on the proper side of the road though. ;-)

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#94

Post by beobab »

salawat wrote: post #76
SomeHacker44 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In college Mandarin courses we were required to learn 30 words a day. That was a nearly impossible task for 20 year old me and required three hours of study a day on top of the 1:20 or 1:50 long daily class. To think a person more than twice that age can learn 30 words a day is, to my aged brain, ludicrous. Maybe it’s just me, but my learning ability is now vastly below what it was in my teens or even college.

So, it isn't actually. I did a short foray into learning Morse Code, and I ran into what I found to be the biggest barrier to learning new languages. The bloody lookup table phenomena. What happens is your mental representation maps the Morse sequence->your primary language character->whatever the message then actually means. This is a very high overhead mental process, and one specifically advised against by fluent…

Oh my days. That's the saddest (as in - imparting of sadness) morse code message in the world. :'(

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#95

Post by hluska »

This is anecdotal and I am a sample of one, so do with this as you will. I have learned to speak French at two particular times. When I was very young, my Grandma Yvette often spoke French to me and I spent three years in French immersion. Now, I am an adult who barely speaks the language, but I have a daughter who I badly want to bless with the French language. So, I’m learning again...

I have noticed two things. The first is that when I was a kid, I didn’t care who I spoke French to, how loud I was, or how many words I mangled. It was like a cool code for me. As an adult, I’m damned near petrified to speak the language. This is unlike me. I’ll gladly spend a week cold calling potential clients, but if I hear people speaking French, I often cannot bring myself to introduce myself or ask how they are. I’ll ask a stranger for money in English, but I’ll be damned if I ask a stranger to pass the cream in French.

Another thing I’ve noticed is that it’s a lot harder to learn how to pronounce things. Some sounds seem to be engrained from years of speaking when I was young. Other words, crap.

Consider the word “de rien”. It is so simple. Three syllables. Yet, I could walk into any French speaking country in the world and get a long term disability pension just by saying it. Last week, I even found a French couple to help me and I’ve been doing lots of drills, but when I record it and play it back, I sound quite soft in the head.

Who would have thought that a phrase that translates to ‘it’s nothing’ would be such a big problem for me?? :)

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#96

Post by hluska »

shawabawa3 wrote: post #90
hluska wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a sample of one, but my experience with French people has been much different. As long as I’ve been open about being a beginner (from Western Canada) who badly wants to practice, I’ve actually been quite pleasantly surprised by how hard French speakers work to make me feel comfortable. For example, just last week, I asked a French speaking couple I know to help me pronounce “de rien”. When I say it, I sound like…

> help me pronounce “derrien” Do you mean "de rien"? (As in "no problem", literally "it was nothing") I agree r's are definitely the hardest thing to pronounce in french (as an english speaker at least). I think "rire" is the hardest word in the french language

Thanks for pointing that out - I fixed it.

Don’t even get me started on rire. That’s another word that makes me sound significantly dumber than I hope I am!! :)

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#97

Post by mr_overalls »

SomeHacker44 wrote: post #45
imtringued wrote: post #16

It's just a matter on how much time you spend learning the language. Even if you only consider the time you spent in school merely learning your own native language those school lessons will add up to thousands of hours. How many adults, who have already "learned" a foreign language, dedicate 6 hours per week purely on further improving their skills in that language for 12 years? If you are worried about not knowing…

In college Mandarin courses we were required to learn 30 words a day. That was a nearly impossible task for 20 year old me and required three hours of study a day on top of the 1:20 or 1:50 long daily class. To think a person more than twice that age can learn 30 words a day is, to my aged brain, ludicrous. Maybe it’s just me, but my learning ability is now vastly below what it was in my teens or even college.

Have you ever tried the method of spaced repetition? It's astounding how efficient it can be as a tool for memorization.

https://apps.ankiweb.net/

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#98

Post by taejo »

danieltillett wrote: post #17
mattmanser wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who rely on wit and charm as their social lubricant need it. I remember one place I worked had an exchange program between labs, we had a French girl in ours who seemed very shy and withdrawn, but the colleague who'd been to the French lab the year before (and was fluent in French) said she was an absolute riot and the soul of any party in France.

Well yes, but for most on HN I doubt that is an issue :)

But we make up for it with our good looks and sporting ability! /s

While "charm" may not fit the stereotype of an HNer, I'd guess we're more likely than average to rely on communication to make a good impression. I, as an immigrant, certainly feel that I'm handicapped because humour and interesting conversation are all I have to offer on a first date!

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#99

Post by MuffinFlavored »

hluska wrote: post #95

This is anecdotal and I am a sample of one, so do with this as you will. I have learned to speak French at two particular times. When I was very young, my Grandma Yvette often spoke French to me and I spent three years in French immersion. Now, I am an adult who barely speaks the language, but I have a daughter who I badly want to bless with the French language. So, I’m learning again... I have noticed two things. Th…

do you really cold call clients and ask people for money or were those just made up examples?

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#100

Post by cced »

hluska wrote: post #95

This is anecdotal and I am a sample of one, so do with this as you will. I have learned to speak French at two particular times. When I was very young, my Grandma Yvette often spoke French to me and I spent three years in French immersion. Now, I am an adult who barely speaks the language, but I have a daughter who I badly want to bless with the French language. So, I’m learning again... I have noticed two things. Th…

Not to be nitpicky, but to be precise, “de rien” translates to “from nothing”. Similar expressions in english are “no worries”, “no problem”, or “you’re welcome” .

As for speaking a foreign language, you need to take the jump. Know that, you are likely to be judged. However, there are people who find joy in seeing others speak their language and do so in a nurturing environment. You just need to find those people and practice with them, without fear of judgement.

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