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It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

nytimes.com

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Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#51
Strictly anecdatally (nb: intentional), I moved to France at 26, spent a total of five years living in France before heading back to the US, have kept French involved in my life, and now fifteen years later will have French people ask me where in France I am from. Which is to say, that this article reads as personal experience more than anything else. However, French is probably a very unique case for study.

French poses a large number of difficulties for the native English speaker. While the letters are the same, the sounds are subtly different (more precise, less rounded than English), and there are at least three sounds that simply don't exist in English (the two "u" sounds "ou" and "u", the nasal "n", the guttural "r"). You most likely won't even be able to hear the difference between the two "u" sounds until after you've trained your ears.

Also, many sounds are simply elided from the words they are attached to. Almost any word with an "s" loses that sound ("filles" and "fille" for daughter(s) are both pronounced "fee"). A word like "comment" (how), where if you were to pronounce the "ent" would be a very light nasal "n" sound, is pronounced "co-mo".

Additionally, while the number of contractions in English is small, French has a construct called the liaison (which means link), which causes a combinatorial explosions in audible contractions. For example, the word comment (pronounced "co-mo") and the word allez (pronounced "ah-lay") links to become "co-mo-ta-lay". (added "T" sound).

This link is because normally, in French, two vowel sounds can not be consecutive, and so the otherwise silent sound is re-injected to make the two sounds flow together better. In cases where no sound has been elided, a new letter is injected to keep the flow. "Has" is "a", and "he" is "il", but "has he eaten?" gets an injected "t": "a-t-il mangé?". However, if adding the sound for flow causes confusion, then the French will leave it out for no strict reason. The example given to me was "trop aidé", which translates literally as "too helped", because the link would make it sound like "too gay", which would cause confusion.

So when you combine these (along with a number of complexities I haven't mentioned yet (like there's a whole verb tense that only exists in writing, but not spoken form), then French in specific conflicts with a lot of what you learn for English, making it very difficult to learn as your second language.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#52

The main difficulty is that there are so many French words in the English language, with slightly different meanings: so called false cognates.¹ 1: https://www.thoughtco.com/french-english-false-cognates-faux...

faux amis in French, and that's obviously a problem for the opposite direction as well.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#53

I think the subtle thing missed here is the effort required to speak a second language well is not worth the effort. Just scraping by is good enough especially if you still have access to your first language. Why speak French well when for a fraction of the effort speaking poorly gets you 90% of the return.

People who rely on wit and charm as their social lubricant need it. I remember one place I worked had an exchange program between labs, we had a French girl in ours who seemed very shy and withdrawn, but the colleague who'd been to the French lab the year before (and was fluent in French) said she was an absolute riot and the soul of any party in France.

Very few french folks who live in France like to speak any other language, regardless of their objective level. Those who went abroad are better in this. The excuse is always the same - "my level is not so good" - which is mostly not true, they are perfectly understandable and speak fine. Maybe they don't like their accent, but this is not any blocker for a good conversation.

Very personal experience for past 8 years - living 2km from French border, surrounded by them day and night.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#54
post #11

> And I revel in small triumphs, like discovering that a woolen ball on a sweater is a “boulouche” It's not. It's "bouloche" -- https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/bouloche > When my kids brought home notices telling me to check their hair for “poux” (pronounced “poo”), I correctly deduced that it meant lice. But later, in a first-aid course, I was perplexed when the instructor told us to immediately check an unconscious…

A good way to get an idea of how your language sounds to a foreigner is to throw away every other word. Literally. Then randomly mix close sounds (depending on your accent it can be buck/bark or buck/book).

Was it "a symmetrical" or "asymmetrical"? Was it "inward" or an "n-word"? Was it "not able to" or "vagina"?

Lots of fun!

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#55
post #39

It's just a matter on how much time you spend learning the language. Even if you only consider the time you spent in school merely learning your own native language those school lessons will add up to thousands of hours. How many adults, who have already "learned" a foreign language, dedicate 6 hours per week purely on further improving their skills in that language for 12 years? If you are worried about not knowing…

What website/application would you recommend for spaced repetition of vocabulary? I've found the changing Windows logon screens quite nice, since every other day or so there's a new beautiful picture along with a few bubbles of text in German, enabling me to learn a few new words (though I'll probably forget most of them).

Anki is very powerful, but Memrise is a more user-friendly option that includes ready-made card decks for most popular languages.

https://www.memrise.com/

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#56

I despised French a bit (my own native tongue), as I grew up with a little fondness for English, and spent most of my time speaking English (probably Engrish at times). Then I got.. say bored of casual (tech/web) English, and started to feel happy again with French, even accounting for all its odd rules and twists and everything. I felt it was a lovely bag of varied multitudes and shades that were very good for paint…

I relate to that. As a Portuguese, I had both English and French in school. As a teen nerd learning Basic on the ZX Spectrum, English was much useful than weird french. I now regret not paying much attention to those classes.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#57
post #11

> And I revel in small triumphs, like discovering that a woolen ball on a sweater is a “boulouche” It's not. It's "bouloche" -- https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/bouloche > When my kids brought home notices telling me to check their hair for “poux” (pronounced “poo”), I correctly deduced that it meant lice. But later, in a first-aid course, I was perplexed when the instructor told us to immediately check an unconscious…

It's not hard to them to make this mistake: "le", "la", "les" is all "the" for english natives, while verbs and adjective don't change according to plural or gender. A lot of my mistakes in spanish comes from me trying to call masculine something that is not and vice versa. French is a difficult language to learn: - many letters are useless relics from the past, twisted, accentuated or silent. - conjugations, plural,…

>French is a difficult language to learn

For a native English speaker, it's one of the easiest languages to learn.

https://web.archive.org/web/20071014005901/http://www.nvtc.g...

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#58

It's just a matter on how much time you spend learning the language. Even if you only consider the time you spent in school merely learning your own native language those school lessons will add up to thousands of hours. How many adults, who have already "learned" a foreign language, dedicate 6 hours per week purely on further improving their skills in that language for 12 years? If you are worried about not knowing…

>It's just a matter on how much time you spend learning the language.

I'm not sure if you're making a personal observation that's unrelated to the specific findings in the research paper. That's fine but it may inadvertently make people think that's what the paper concludes.

The particular paper[0] says that when testing for grammar accuracy in a 2nd language, the years of experience is not as predictive as age of of first exposure. The same dropoff of learning grammar happens to immersion as well as non-immersion older learners.

The authors don't claim to know why that happens but nevertheless noticed the patterns.

[0] found a full pdf in amazon s3: https://s3.amazonaws.com/l3atbc-public/pub_pdfs/JK_Hartshorn...

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#59
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not. It's "bouloche" -- https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/bouloche That says a lot about the quality of peer review at the NYT.

That someone missed potentially a typo in a foreign language?

That could have been checked easily in like 5 seconds of review? Yes.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#60

The problem with French is that the French are very sensitive to mistakes. If I speak bad English (I am Russian), everybody is still happy, the worst thing can happen is I’ll get corrected, and in 99.9% of cases it’s not even that. If I speak bad French with a French person... may God have mercy upon my soul. Especially if I forgot to say bonjour/bonsoir first (abomination! burn the heretic!)

They are sensitive because even what may seem to you like a tiny mistake, or a slight mispronunciation can completely change the meaning of a sentence or make it impossible to understand.

Broken English is everywhere, people got used to it. This is not the case for other, less pervasive languages.

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