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Tesla Model 3 vs. BMW M3 [video]

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Re: Tesla Model 3 vs. BMW M3 [video]

#41

Post by bryanlarsen »

drm237 wrote: post #18
dragontamer wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I believe that plug-in hybrids will last much longer than people expect. I know most techno-geeks think that PHEVs (Plugin Hybrid Electric Vehicles) are "stop-gap" technologies.... but they solve the range problem AND solve the "batteries are heavy" problem very elegantly. Lets be frank: Li-Ion batteries may have gotten dramatically lighter, but they're no where close to how light gasoline is. PHEVs allow…

This seems unlikely given that the Volt has been canceled and much of the momentum is moving towards electric only platforms, even from the major manufacturers.

The Volt was cancelled because the Cruze was cancelled so it doesn't say much about the PHEV market.

Re: Tesla Model 3 vs. BMW M3 [video]

#42

Post by Silhouette »

theluketaylor wrote: post #37
Silhouette wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the basic sentiment that EVs have potential but aren't quite there yet. One issue that I've seen raised a few times now is how honest the environmental credentials of these EVs really are. Sure, you aren't emitting pollution from your petrol/diesel engine as you drive. However, you have the emissions from whatever electricity source you use for charging instead, which obviously depends on how environment…

This is a common argument, but I think it's a great example of perfect being the enemy of good for a couple of reasons. 1) Cars (especially diesels) emit far more particulates and carbon in real world driving conditions compared to idealized testing. The sort of stop and go, light to light driving we do on a daily basis running errands while the engine is cold is the worst edge case for an internal combustion engine.…

Yes, this is all true. However, it's also fair to say that a lot of "green" technologies have been oversold over the past decade or two, with their realistic environmental credentials at the time of use not necessarily living up to either their long-term potential or the hype in the promotional literature. Moreover, some (not all, of course) green advocacy groups are among the worst offenders when it comes to distorting science and cherry-picking evidence to build an argument around their preferred world view.

It is important that we look to the future, and it may be necessary to accept some compromises along the way as we transition to technologies and lifestyle choices that will be better in the long term. No-one is disputing this, at least not in this discussion that I can see. But I don't think this is a perfect-vs-good argument. It's more a good-vs-not-good-yet argument, and trying to move ahead with a technology on a large scale before it's ready isn't necessarily a good option at all. As ever, we should be guided on such matters by robust scientific evidence and strategic long-term planning as much as possible.

Re: Tesla Model 3 vs. BMW M3 [video]

#43

Post by toomuchtodo »

Silhouette wrote: post #17
cyrildorsaz wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the new Tesla Model S Long Range (400 miles of range on freeway), you can drive non stop between LA and San Francisco.

Isn't the real problem with using EVs for long distance travel the charging time, though? My petrol engine car has finite range as well, but if I'm running low, I can easily find somewhere to fill up and it takes less than five minutes. If you have an EV, how easy is it to find a charging station, and how long does it take to recharge? Some of these practical issues still seem to be a long way from being solved, and…

You’re never more than 150 miles from a Supercharger in the US, and it takes ~30 minutes to fully charge on road trips (which is a fair compromise for never going to the gas station day to day).

Re: Tesla Model 3 vs. BMW M3 [video]

#44

Post by hpkuarg »

tosser0001 wrote: post #36
jak92 wrote: post #33

These super fast cars are a threat to life and safety in urban environments. EV or not, these fast vehicles should not be sold as these speeds do not serve any valid purpose.

I just came here to say something similar. It drives me nuts that this sort of power and performance is let loose on public streets. At some point I would think we'd be able to have some sort of geofencing system were a car would be forced into "golf cart" mode once it's off the highway.

Where is this sentiment coming from? Let the driver (who is legally, ethically, and morally responsible for the operation of the vehicle they are controlling) judge the appropriate safety boundaries of the environment they're currently driving through. A 45mph zone would be more appropriately driven at anything from 15 to 70mph, depending on so many factors other than "it's off the highway".

At any rate, don't turn a fine piece of engineering that many people have an emotional connection with, not to mention pay a lot of hard-earned money for, into some vaguely-autonomous, ToS-bound appliance that does not what its owner sees fit, but what its maker deems appropriate from medium earth orbit.

Censorship applies to behavior as well as words.

Re: Tesla Model 3 vs. BMW M3 [video]

#45

Post by Silhouette »

drm237 wrote: post #19
Silhouette wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the real problem with using EVs for long distance travel the charging time, though? My petrol engine car has finite range as well, but if I'm running low, I can easily find somewhere to fill up and it takes less than five minutes. If you have an EV, how easy is it to find a charging station, and how long does it take to recharge? Some of these practical issues still seem to be a long way from being solved, and…

With EVs that you can charge at home, that means that for your normal driving that you probably do 80 to 90 % of the time, you NEVER need to stop to "fill up" because you charge every night at home. The tradeoff is that when you do decide to drive more than 250 to 350 miles in one trip, you'll need to take at least one break where you charge. If you optimize only for the long journeys, you miss out on the benefits fr…

If you optimize only for the long journeys, you miss out on the benefits from normal driving which you probably do a lot more often.

Please be careful with that sort of assumption, though. For example, I work from home and have a lot of day-to-day facilities quite nearby, so on any given day I might not drive anywhere at all. If I'm driving, it's probably either because I need to carry a lot with me to some local event or because I'm travelling a longer distance. There are certainly efforts to encourage more of this sort of lifestyle in planning new residential areas in my country (the UK) and reduce the need for routine daily commuting over short-to-medium distances by car, so if we're taking a long-term view then we should allow for that.

Re: Tesla Model 3 vs. BMW M3 [video]

#46

Post by Silhouette »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #43
Silhouette wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the real problem with using EVs for long distance travel the charging time, though? My petrol engine car has finite range as well, but if I'm running low, I can easily find somewhere to fill up and it takes less than five minutes. If you have an EV, how easy is it to find a charging station, and how long does it take to recharge? Some of these practical issues still seem to be a long way from being solved, and…

You’re never more than 150 miles from a Supercharger in the US, and it takes ~30 minutes to fully charge on road trips (which is a fair compromise for never going to the gas station day to day).

What about the rest of the world, though? Granted the US has a greater problem with harmful emissions than almost anywhere else combined with a culture of big, inefficient vehicles that make these alternatives particularly attractive. But people in other places are asking about the future of transportation and how to make things more sustainable and environmentally friendly too, and the arithmetic doesn't necessarily work out the same way if you're starting from a more normal baseline.

Re: Tesla Model 3 vs. BMW M3 [video]

#47

Post by [deleted] »

Silhouette wrote: post #46
toomuchtodo wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re never more than 150 miles from a Supercharger in the US, and it takes ~30 minutes to fully charge on road trips (which is a fair compromise for never going to the gas station day to day).

What about the rest of the world, though? Granted the US has a greater problem with harmful emissions than almost anywhere else combined with a culture of big, inefficient vehicles that make these alternatives particularly attractive. But people in other places are asking about the future of transportation and how to make things more sustainable and environmentally friendly too, and the arithmetic doesn't necessarily…

[deleted]

Re: Tesla Model 3 vs. BMW M3 [video]

#48

Post by toomuchtodo »

Silhouette wrote: post #46
toomuchtodo wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re never more than 150 miles from a Supercharger in the US, and it takes ~30 minutes to fully charge on road trips (which is a fair compromise for never going to the gas station day to day).

What about the rest of the world, though? Granted the US has a greater problem with harmful emissions than almost anywhere else combined with a culture of big, inefficient vehicles that make these alternatives particularly attractive. But people in other places are asking about the future of transportation and how to make things more sustainable and environmentally friendly too, and the arithmetic doesn't necessarily…

Electric busses, scooters, and taxis for urban areas, electric cars for private owners and suburban/rural areas.

Re: Tesla Model 3 vs. BMW M3 [video]

#50

Post by diab0lic »

jklm wrote: post #15
diab0lic wrote: post #7

My last car was an E92 M3 MT (with Tech, Premium, Competition packages and a modded exhaust). It was the most fun vehicle I've ever driven. It had plenty of power, and introduced me to the side of cars other than straight line power. It also had plenty of luxury inside, the car was credibly comfortable. All in all I think it compared very favorably to my friends R8 with nearly as much performance and plenty more luxu…

What else was expensive to maintain, and why? Was this on a new M3?

It was an E92, and specifically the 2008 model. The most expensive thing I ever did was the brakes. The competition package has floating discs and they were ~$2500 to replace. There are just a lot of design decisions on a car like that which favour performance over maintainability. Another example from when I first got it was the car was the gas tank would only fill up to about 3/4. Turns out because the car is so low the tank has a saddlebag design and a transfer pump transfers gas between the two sides of the tank. Though the truth is even oil is a lot more expensive as it drank six quarts of 10W60.

A newer car would have likely been a little easier on maintenance, but the truth is the thing begs to be driven hard, which also doesn't help. Haha

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