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Apple Defends Decision to Remove Parental Control Apps

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Re: Apple Defends Decision to Remove Parental Control Apps

#31

Post by geofft »

canuckintime wrote: post #23
terracatta wrote: post #6

I find the decision of the scorned developers to file with the European Union’s competition office amusing considering the Union's incredibly strong stance on individual data privacy. iPhones contain so much personal data on-device that Apple is absolutely responsible for protecting that data from illegitimate access. Using MDM which is clearly intended for enterprise management is an illegitimate use-case. Period. T…

> I find the decision of the scorned developers to file with the European Union’s competition office amusing... Apple is under no obligation to offer unfettered API access to these companies just because they were filling a market need that Apple didn't want to pursue. The crux of the complaint is that Apple is pursuing this market need with Screentime introduced at the same time Apple started banning these competito…

Yes, that's the complaint, but it's not a convincing one. Apple doesn't make money from Screen Time; it's a default part of iOS, with no subscription fees, and everyone with a compatible device gets iOS upgrades themselves for free (and Apple's been really good about compatibility in the last few releases). Apple saying "We wish that third parties were not abusing MDM to provide this feature, but we recognize the feature is important, so we'll just implement it ourselves and only kill the third-party apps once our thing works" is an entirely coherent thought process. It is exactly what Apple would do if the are genuinely motivated by user privacy/security and genuinely not motivated by trying to be anti-competitive towards these apps.

Re: Apple Defends Decision to Remove Parental Control Apps

#33

Post by jmkni »

scarface74 wrote: post #11
ar-jan wrote: post #8

I wonder if they're also removing the apps used to control women's lives in Saudi Arabia.

While the apps are atrocious. The apps from what I csn tell are just front ends for websites and services being offered. They don’t do anything on the phone itself that takes advantage of special permissions. Of course they should remove them too.

Doesn't that violate the Apple store's terms of use in a completely different way (ie adds no functionality outside of what the user can do in the browser?)

Re: Apple Defends Decision to Remove Parental Control Apps

#34

Post by cobbzilla »

ar-jan wrote: post #8

I wonder if they're also removing the apps used to control women's lives in Saudi Arabia.

I mentioned this once before, but there are reports of women escaping KSA by surreptitiously using their guardian’s phone, approving travel, and getting the heck out before the guardian figures out what is going on.

Their laws are their laws, and they suck. I’d rather have an app that at least allows some women to escape.

Re: Apple Defends Decision to Remove Parental Control Apps

#35

Post by KirinDave »

ghostly_s wrote: post #16

This is...a very weird situation. > “Over the last year, we became aware that several of these parental control apps were using a highly invasive technology called Mobile Device Management, or MDM. > “MDM gives a third-party control and access over a device and its most sensitive information, including user location, app use, email accounts, camera permissions, and browsing history.” They make this sound like MDM is…

> They make this sound like MDM is some scary third-party attack on their platform, neglecting to point out MDM is a system they designed. There's always been some schizophrenia from Apple around MDM (publicize new control features to admins in one release, add a big scary vague user-facing warning when that feature is actually used in the next release), but their general stance has consistently been that you, as a company, have a right to enforce whatever restrictions are available on devices used by your employees so long as you own them, and so long as you accept whatever user-disclosure features they decide to implement. Likewise, you have a right to enforce a more limited suite of controls on your employee's personal devices, so long as it's all opt-in.

Right, sure. I got a work device and the company owns it and I don't do my own personal stuff on it (and hopefully other folks follow suit). If the company screws up its security, those devices are utterly compromised. MDM, for all its good intention, is a comprehensive surveillance system for a phone. It is a little piece of the corporate panopticon on your pocket. That can actually be quite convenient, but I certainly think folks should keep the aspects of their lives separate.

It's a bit different with kids and parents though? MDM is a massive invasion of privacy and unlike in the work phone relationship, we'd expect a vulnerable young person's entire personal life to be embedded on the device. Also, children generally don't have the option to walk away from their parents and find new, less restrictive parents.

It is true, the parents own the device legally. They can take it away. That isn't necessarily a call for Apple to enable parents to run spyware run by third parties. Quite frankly, third parties no well-informed consumer should trust given their abysmal track records for privacy and security issues. The idea of Kaspersky running the intermediary rendezvous server for all of my child's private communications is pretty scary to me.

I appreciate the desire to keep kids safe, but coming from an abusive home I have to tell you that computers were my escape from physical and mental abuse and I am fairly sure I wouldn't be alive today if my parents could have closed a net as powerful as MDM around my life.

Re: Apple Defends Decision to Remove Parental Control Apps

#36

Post by arien »

iMark wrote: post #26
Isamu wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple doesn't make money from you spending all day on your phone. They would be fine if everybody would buy a phone, maybe a couple of apps, and set aside until there was a need. You are mistaking them for Facebook or any of the other engagement-driven, ad-selling companies.

That's becoming less true with Apple's increasing revenue from services.

You pay a monthly fee, so it doesn't really matter to them how much do you use the services during this month.

In fact, the less you use them, the more profitable it is for them.

Re: Apple Defends Decision to Remove Parental Control Apps

#37

Post by geofft »

jimmaswell wrote: post #19
terracatta wrote: post #6

I find the decision of the scorned developers to file with the European Union’s competition office amusing considering the Union's incredibly strong stance on individual data privacy. iPhones contain so much personal data on-device that Apple is absolutely responsible for protecting that data from illegitimate access. Using MDM which is clearly intended for enterprise management is an illegitimate use-case. Period. T…

Whatever Europe's crazy data privacy laws, it's ridiculous they'd apply to the case of a parent keeping track of their kids. The kid's right to wander into crazy elsagate videos and have covert online conversations with predators unsupervised is more important than the parent's right to protect their kid, and Apple is justified in ripping the monitoring capability out of parents' hands? Is that what you're saying? Ho…

On an ethical argument (not a what-does-the-law-say-now argument), it seems defensible for kids (over a certain age, perhaps) to have reliable channels that their parents can't monitor. It's how you realize your family is abusive and get help when they are (the same arguments apply to people in abusive romantic relationships having their own digital root-of-trust that their partner doesn't have access to). It's how you find out that other people are queer too and it's not just you when your parents won't tell you anything.

Your argument also has merit, and I don't know where the balance is, but I don't think it's entirely one or the other.

Re: Apple Defends Decision to Remove Parental Control Apps

#38

Post by 1sttimeposter »

Isamu wrote: post #12
gregoryexe wrote: post #4

FTA: "The controversy follows comments last week by chief executive Tim Cook, who said that Apple wanted to see customers spend less time on their devices." Talk is cheap and sells well...

Apple doesn't make money from you spending all day on your phone. They would be fine if everybody would buy a phone, maybe a couple of apps, and set aside until there was a need. You are mistaking them for Facebook or any of the other engagement-driven, ad-selling companies.

Apple most certainly makes money off of ads. It isn’t a major profit center but according to the following article it is on track to rake in $2B by next year. Also they make a nice cut of sales via app purchases an in-app purchases. They. Definitely want you using your device as regularly as possible to capitalize on that revenue opportunity. Their stance on privacy and security is a marketing angle capitalizing on the fear currently out there as a result of people awakening to how much of the web is monetized (I.e. with ads).

https://searchengineland.com/apple-search-ads-expected-to-ge...

Re: Apple Defends Decision to Remove Parental Control Apps

#39

Post by KirinDave »

ar-jan wrote: post #8

I wonder if they're also removing the apps used to control women's lives in Saudi Arabia.

Why go right to Saudi Arabia? Are they going to do more about spousal spyware in the US and Europe? It's a popular product, and in many places in the US the law is as tolerant of spousal abuse as they are in SA. We see thousands of examples every year of domestic abusers in the US and UK getting slaps on the wrist for things that would have been assault charges without a marriage license in play.

I agree, SA's culture promotes a toxic repression of women. But before Apple goes world policing I'd like to see them take a domestic stand, because last time I checked spouse spyware apps are still in the store and aren't auto-banned. Please correct me if Apple took action since then.

Re: Apple Defends Decision to Remove Parental Control Apps

#40

Post by benologist »

Apple's long-standing policy of rolling out a new feature then criminalizing whatever subsequently competes with them doesn't need defending. There's maybe even too much defending - broken keyboards, bent iPads, anti-competitive practices, and not enough honesty or ethics in that company.
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