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Darling – macOS Translation Layer for Linux

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Re: Darling – macOS Translation Layer for Linux

#61

Post by Wowfunhappy »

earenndil wrote: post #48
dehrmann wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially for MacOs, where you can expect apps to stop working after a new new major OS versions, this is really nice. Meanwhile, Microsoft maintains an amazing degree of compatibility. I haven't tried, but I have a feeling Office 97 works in Windows 10.

Traditionally, that was the case, but recently older applications have been breaking in recent versions of windows. And windows and macos both have hacks in place to fix older versions of popular applications (ms office, adobe suite, etc.).

While Windows's backwards compatibility is sadly getting worse, it's also still pretty incredible. I can run lots of obscure Windows programs that 2+ decades old!

Mac backwards compatibility isn't as bad as some people say—I have a decade-old program that still works in Mojave, for instance—but Windows is a lot better.

The platform with awful backwards compatibility is iOS. And there, you don't even have the option to dual boot or downgrade. The fact that no one cares says something about how much we value mobile software...

Re: Darling – macOS Translation Layer for Linux

#62

Post by flukus »

msbarnett wrote: post #58
techntoke wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> System-wide UI consistency, especially in the fine details > Singular UI/UX vision eliminates points of confusion and everything-is-a-compromise choices for third party developers There are consistent themes across both GTK+ and Qt. Pretty much all my apps share a similar theme and UI. There are Mac Apps as well that deviate from whatever "standardization" you're referring to. > Navigable by non-experts, even when…

> There are consistent themes across both GTK+ and Qt. And then you open an app that’s neither GTK+ nor Qt, and you’re back to square one. Besides, there’s more to UI than “theme”. I have ^w mapped to delete word on OS X. One line in one config file. It works universally in every text box on the system. I tried setting that up in Linux. Eventually got it working through some gnome setting or some such. In some apps.…

> And then you open an app that’s neither GTK+ nor Qt, and you’re back to square one.

The same is true on every OS, if you open a java app on macos it's not going to look right, do you blame apple for that or the developers of the app?

> In some apps. Firefox didn’t respect it and wanted its own setting iirc.

Will firefox respect it on macos? It's not a good example anyway because firefox is not native, firefox is the electron of the 00's. Even when firefox tries to emulate the native theme it screws up, I had to turn off my dark theme just to get text areas with visible text.

Re: Darling – macOS Translation Layer for Linux

#64

Post by scottjg »

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #50
scottjg wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I offer a service that provides you with your own macOS VM, running on real Mac hardware. https://zeromac.com It's billed by the hour, so if you just need to quickly test something, it's pretty cheap. Buying an older mac may be more economical though if you need to develop software long term.

This is super interesting. Is it your full time job? What level of success are you having with your idea?

I run it alongside my regular consulting work, so I suppose it's not my full time job. It's also a fairly new business so I'm not too sure how successful it will be yet.

Re: Darling – macOS Translation Layer for Linux

#65

Post by jancsika »

setpatchaddress wrote: post #52
microcolonel wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> — System-wide UI consistency, especially in the fine details > — Singular UI/UX vision eliminates points of confusion and everything-is-a-compromise choices for third party developers I mean, first-party GNOME applications are as consistent as first-party Apple macOS applications; and third-party macOS applications are as highly customized as third-party applications one might run on GNOME. Not sure what you base y…

CoreAudio round trip latency can be under 5ms.

I bet somebody has a Gnu/Linux rig using ALSA with well below 5ms round-trip latency, too.

The plus to CoreAudio is that any system it runs on has probably been designed so that a non-technical user can get something like the low-latency you're describing by default. The minus is that hardware probably costs at least $800, and CoreAudio doesn't support things like the RPI.

The plus to ALSA is that it runs on things like RPI, with the minus that non-technical users probably won't get round-trip latency below 5 ms without paying someone Mac-level money for hardware designed especially for Linux audio.

Re: Darling – macOS Translation Layer for Linux

#66

Post by msla »

icxa wrote: post #54
msla wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nominally "perfect" hardware support With the decline of Apple hardware, this is less true, and modern Linux hardware support is, at worst, no worse than what other OSes provide, in my experience. > Navigable by non-experts, even when things turn to shit I think the "Closed Box Philosophy" of Apple either defines or disproves this: Non-experts can't be tripped up by having to fix things... because nobody outside of…

> With the decline of Apple hardware, this is less true, and modern Linux hardware support is, at worst, no worse than what other OSes provide, in my experience. I will still take a perceived regression in hardware from Apple over anything else on the market today. They are that far ahead. Still the best touchpad and connectivity support which are the two most important factors in my book. Also still the most aesthet…

The butterfly switch Macbook Pro keyboards prove it isn't just a perceived regression.

I get the appeal of the Apple Universe: It Just Works, everything is crafted, etc. The problem with that idea is that it's been eroded from two directions: Apple's own incompetence at making hardware and software which Just Works, and everyone else catching up to Apple at lower price points and, as I said before, while offering more meaningful choice than Apple has since the days of the Apple II.

I remember when I needed ndiswrapper to use WiFi on a laptop under Linux. I remember when I needed a bizarre Frankenstein pseudo-FTP setup to access NTFS partitions on Linux. I remember when USB didn't exist and you needed device drivers for every single thing. Those days are gone. Macs not having to deal with those things is no longer a competitive advantage.

These days, Macs are only really special in that they tie you to the Apple universe. I'm not interested in being tied to a corporation like that.

Re: Darling – macOS Translation Layer for Linux

#67

Post by sjwright »

flukus wrote: post #62
msbarnett wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are consistent themes across both GTK+ and Qt. And then you open an app that’s neither GTK+ nor Qt, and you’re back to square one. Besides, there’s more to UI than “theme”. I have ^w mapped to delete word on OS X. One line in one config file. It works universally in every text box on the system. I tried setting that up in Linux. Eventually got it working through some gnome setting or some such. In some apps.…

> And then you open an app that’s neither GTK+ nor Qt, and you’re back to square one. The same is true on every OS, if you open a java app on macos it's not going to look right, do you blame apple for that or the developers of the app? > In some apps. Firefox didn’t respect it and wanted its own setting iirc. Will firefox respect it on macos? It's not a good example anyway because firefox is not native, firefox is th…

All are exceptions that prove the rule.

Re: Darling – macOS Translation Layer for Linux

#68

Post by mycall »

zapzupnz wrote: post #38
solarkraft wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately - call me superficial - I can't really get past its crusty look.

I'm with you on that, and it seems to be symptomatic of the project's refusal to step away from the legacy of mimicking OPENSTEP. They've made 1995 look like a goal towards which to aspire. They've added theming support to GNUSTEP, but that's really lipstick on a pig. Then again, I can't blame them too much, the project is mostly quiet and doesn't attract as much attention as the other popular Linux toolkits.

With material design and fluent design, OPENSTEP is fossilizing.

Re: Darling – macOS Translation Layer for Linux

#69

Post by michaelmrose »

sjwright wrote: post #59
microcolonel wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's really a marginal opinion. Maybe if you're an OpenGL developer. Apple provides an excellent framework (Metal) which works brilliantly. Yes it would be great if Apple delivered first-class support for Vulkan, but complaining about OpenGL is last decade's problem. The Metal drivers are more stable, but the shader compilers generate slow code, just like the old Apple OpenGL drivers (the ones they wrote for the…

> That's not a macOS feature though, that's an Apple PC firmware feature. That you see a distinction here is telling. The end user doesn't see the distinction. As for all of your complaints about the OpenGL drivers, that's an issue for developers, not end users. Yes, maybe there might be more 3D apps and faster 3D apps if the video driver situation was better, but also maybe not? Either way, this is all irrelevant be…

Basically the point is that either distro or hardware providers can already offer easy to use backup functionality.

For example Linux mint comes with time shift. I honestly haven't paid much attention to what people do provide as I've mostly historically used rsync or more recently zfs send/syncoid.

Re: Darling – macOS Translation Layer for Linux

#70

Post by msbarnett »

flukus wrote: post #62
msbarnett wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are consistent themes across both GTK+ and Qt. And then you open an app that’s neither GTK+ nor Qt, and you’re back to square one. Besides, there’s more to UI than “theme”. I have ^w mapped to delete word on OS X. One line in one config file. It works universally in every text box on the system. I tried setting that up in Linux. Eventually got it working through some gnome setting or some such. In some apps.…

> And then you open an app that’s neither GTK+ nor Qt, and you’re back to square one. The same is true on every OS, if you open a java app on macos it's not going to look right, do you blame apple for that or the developers of the app? > In some apps. Firefox didn’t respect it and wanted its own setting iirc. Will firefox respect it on macos? It's not a good example anyway because firefox is not native, firefox is th…

> The same is true on every OS, if you open a java app on macos it's not going to look right, do you blame apple for that or the developers of the app?

I’d blame the app, because in the case of OS X there is a single consistent set of UI components that effectively everything uses, and being gratuitously incompatible is on the app.

In the case of Linux there is only a hodge-podge bazaar of gratuitously incompatible UI kits that every third app disagrees on which to use, so it’s hard to blame any single dev for the universally frustrating shitshow that results.

As an aside, the only java app I’ve interacted with in years (seriously, how often do these even come up any more?), IntelliJ, actually sunk the effort into looking and feeling right. Like I said, it’s night and day on this stuff versus what I experience in Linux on the regular.

> Will firefox respect it on macos?

Yes.

> It's not a good example anyway because firefox is not native, firefox is the electron of the 00's

Electron apps also get this 100% right on OS X.

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