Live data from Hacker News

Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits worked (2017)

techcrunch.com

301–310 of 413 posts

Re: Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits worked (2017)

#301
post #5

They are only moving to other platforms that are harder to track, like Discord or Telegram. Just because they don't appear in the data doesn't mean that they don't exist. Then yes, you sanitize some platforms but the problem as a whole is just less evident but still growing.

Nobody is actually saying we are going to eradicate these ideas completely. Seems like a lot of comments here don’t want to do anything because it won’t completely eliminate the idea. I don’t expect these ideas will ever be eradicated but my issue has always been that these platforms, especially Twitter and Reddit and especially YouTube, present these “underground” ideas alongside “mainstream” ideas and amplify it an…

>Seems like a lot of comments here don’t want to do anything because it won’t completely eliminate the idea.

The nirvana fallacy seems like a very popular defense for gatekeeping changes to something.

>we don’t need to raise bad ideas to the same table as good ones. Just as we shouldn’t be covering “intelligent design” alongside evolution to our kids as an equal alternative.

If you don't find it surprising that people can be influenced by their social environment (spoiler: you shouldn't), this seems like an unavoidable conclusion.

The "marketplace of ideas" is an idea that puts a little too much faith in rationality. It seems as dysfunctional as other markets in that a lot of people make irrational decisions, which have consequences, without caring about (or noticing) the externalities.

Re: Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits worked (2017)

#302
I commented on this the last time it made the rounds, and the study's methodology is flawed in a pretty central way.

From the paper:

> Hate speech and harassment are contentious topics, lacking clear definitions. As discussed above, the European Court of Human Rights notes that “no universally accepted definition of the term ‘hate speech’ exists” [48]. They adopt a definition including “comments which are necessarily directed against a person or particular group of people”, focusing on race, religion, “aggressive nationalism and ethnocentrism”, and homophobic speech [48].

> This definition provides a useful starting point, but it is difficult to operationalize at scale. We therefore take a usage-based approach: given that Reddit has banned the r/fatpeoplehate and r/CoonTown forums, we focus on textual content that is distinctively characteristic of these forums. Using an automated keyword identification technique, we build lexicons of keywords for r/fatpeoplehate and r/CoonTown, which makes it possible to track whether the words in these lexicons become more common in other forums after the ban. Next, we manually inspect the automatically generated lexicons, and identify a subset of terms that are especially oriented towards hate speech. These manually refined lexicons are sparser, but offer higher precision.

The Tldr here is that they defined hate speech as "the subset of terms heavily used in these subreddits, manually filtered by the authors' subjective (and opaque) assessment of hatefulness". My beef actually isn't with the subjectivity of the latter part: I think the reliance on the ill-defined concept of hate speech does a lot more harm than good, but I acknowledge that plenty of people think it's valuable, and that's a non-central hill to die on here.

The real issue with the study is that starting your definition of hate speech with "the lexicon of banned subs" is a fatal confounder:

Many subreddits, particularly free-flowing ideological echo chambers, end up with distinctive lexicons: specific phrases, terms, and in-jokes that people bring up to solidify feelings of community. This isn't a novel insight, since it's how most communities (and indeed relationships) work. the phenomenon is exacerbated for ideological echo chambers, and not just the ones in the right which are more likely to align with people's definition of hate speech: you can find the exact same phenomenon on exho chambers like LateStageCapitalism or ChoosingBeggars, and a milder version on most subs that are less general-interest than eg r/movies.

The study's conclusions essentially boils down to: "if you ban a sub, the distinctive lexicon of that sub becomes less common".....duh? It provides very little signal about the way the amount of hate speech evolves, as someone from fatpeoplehate could easily be spewing the same vile content elsewhere, and just use the term "hambeast" less in favor of a more broadly-used slur like "pig". This isn't a possibility that the paper even attempts to address, and it's conclusions in light of this fatal flaw are downright dishonest.

It's depressing how often people cite this study uncritically. As always, _read the papers behind articles before you cite or share believe them_, particularly when they're reliant on undefined, impossible to measure definitions like "hate speech". If authors at "papers of record" like the NYT are regularly too dumb or dishonest to accurately describes papers' conclusions (or at least describe their limitations), a rag like TechCrunch is DEFINITELY not something you should take at face value.

Re: Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits worked (2017)

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like removing homeless people from your neighborhood by moving them to another?

Homeless people are not undeserving of things based o their actions, fascists are.

Is writing mean comments about fatness fascism? Do you feel your point would've been fully diluted if you wrote "bullies" instead?

Personally I usually don't take overly dramatic comments seriously.

Re: Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits worked (2017)

#304
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://voat.co/v/Voat/3178819 > Gas the kikes Race War Now is not an illegal threat. The supreme court has ruled that a threat needs a place and a time to be considered actionable or illegal. example: We're gassing the kikes at the Freemont Synagogue on 5th avenue, Tuesday. This is the most upvoted comment. We can say things like "it's a matter of perspective", but sometimes things are simply objectively shit. edit,…

Obviously for the people who posting it and maybe many more people, it is not shit. Well, its trash for you but treasure for others. To them you are the assholes for calling it trash or wanting to get rid of it. Its all have to do with agreeing and disagreeing. To them proper places of discussion is the place where you can have comments like that. Its all matter of prespective.

Will you be saying it is all a matter of perspective when they are executing black people?

Re: Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits worked (2017)

#305
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it specifically neither confirmed nor contradicted that assertion, as it was out of scope to track to other venues, or address the larger problem of the entire society. But it DID show that providing cesspools does increase the behavior of swimming in cesspools, AND show that moderation has an effect. Providing mainstream venues for anti-social behavior increases that behavior and harms society. Sure, it ma…

Smoking is a great example because NOW ITS A SEXUAL FETISH TOO When you make something fringe you invite people to fetishize it. All you do is up the ante. Sure, some normies will stop being racists because there’s no longer a place to be racist. But other guys will fetishize racism and shoot up synagogues. Is the benefit of subtracting normies from racist movements worth the cost of creating people who fetishize rac…

I think pervasive racism does more damage than mass shooters, in total. Push it to the fringes.

Re: Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits worked (2017)

#306
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Then FPH was banned, and you know what, we didn't see it metastasize elsewhere, we just saw many fewer FPH-style posts, which I'd say is a good thing. But what we DID see, for a while at least, was a lot of people sympathetic to that subreddit arguing in any way they could think of that the ban was either inconsistent, not needed, unfair or wouldn't work. But what do you know, by and large that content kind of just…

I'd argue that FPH was by and large a reaction to that whole "Fat Acceptance" fad that also happened to fade away for the most part. Everytime a member of that "movement" got a lot of attention you would see a lot more FPH related posts, likely from people venting their disapproval. So it wasn't necessarily the ban that got rid of FPH but rather the "Fat Acceptance Movement" losing steam.

FPH is gone because it was banned, and it was banned at a time when it was very active, provoked a massive backlash in the immediate term, and the ban appears in the long run to have had the effect of stopping the activity.

I guess your argument for the decline in activity not coming from the ban, but scaling up and down in relation with the prominence of fat acceptance, would have to be that the ban coincided with fat acceptance losing steam around the same time, which I don't think to be the case. (It's also a way of talking that seems to equivocate on whether the behavior was acceptable, since it can be explained as a response to something else, and I think its unacceptability is important enough that it needs to remain clear in any conversation about it.)

I don't have an obvious way of measuring the relationship one way or other. But the face value version of events, which is just that the ban worked, full stop, requires fewer coincidences.

Re: Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits worked (2017)

#307

There's a predictable cycle each time you ban toxic users. There is a core of incredibly toxic users, surrounded by a halo of sympathizers. When the toxic users get banned, the sympathizers will argue in bad faith, moving heaven and Earth to insist that the ban was either unfair, inconsistent, ineffectual, or extreme, or a violation of their interpretation of free speech. To whatever extent there was an actual debate…

So a free speech advocate is in bad faith in your mind?

Not necessarily, but it can be for sure. I think in the context of reddit threads debating the need for moderation, a large proportion, if not most of the free speech folks were working backward from wanting to defend trolls toward an interpretation of free speech principles that effectively worked to shelter the trolling behavior.

Re: Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits worked (2017)

#308
post #15

> Migration was common, both to similar subreddits (i.e. overtly racist ones) and tangentially related ones (r/The_Donald). Tangentially-related? I'm pretty sure this crosses the line of being tangentially-related to racism. https://i.redd.it/ua1ukmoi8ls21.jpg

You realize anyone can post anything on reddit? I could go to /r/SandersForPresident and LARP as a violent communist revolutionary, right this moment if I wanted to.

Yes, you could. You'd probably receive a ban instantly, not have people engaging with you and upvoting you. You'd certainly not be able to do that for weeks (since some of these I've opened at random still post in t_d).

I don't know who you're trying to fool by claiming this shit isn't common on t_d, but you're not fooling anyone.

Re: Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits worked (2017)

#309
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm not so worried about the free speech aspects of that...there's always somewhere to spew whatever opinion you have. You know, this is a really interesting observation. Oftentimes in these debates about moderation, people argue that you can't do it because these platforms are already de-facto public platforms. Meanwhile, in this thread's conversation, the main argument seems to be that pushing people off mainstrea…

My reasoning is that it's not really different from the past. Heavy corporate control of communications media isn't new, it predates the internet. Yet people still find ways to get their rants seen and heard, then..and now. I concede that companies can make it harder. Hard to really stamp it out though.

And that's fine. I think I lean toward your reasoning, more or less. Though what I WANT to do is take concerns about consolidated media seriously while also undercutting the free-speech argument that seems backward-engineered specifically just to defend trolling.

If we can all agree (not that we should, but if we DID agree) that there are platforms that are de-facto public spaces, and we want to take away their ability to moderate the way they currently do, then let's work to make them actual public utilties/spaces/whatevers, so that the standards they are subjected to are formalized and not pushed and pulled by weird momentary energies of this or that internet controversy.

Or work to decentralize them, again, so that the issue of how moderation happens isn't just attached to this weirdly specific cultural moment where it's hard to figure out the sincerity of the motivations.

Or just reject the whole argument outright.

Re: Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits worked (2017)

#310

It "worked" only if the definition is "it removed it from Reddit". As the article mentions, these people did not just disappear or change their mind. They just moved to more obscure places, where they can continue and be evem more motivated, because now they have been censored. And you might still consider this to be a satisfiable definition for "it worked". Out of sight, out of mind. Except that, these people are no…

I feel like these types of "free speech solves hate" arguments should be automatically rejected until the author gives evidence that rational argumentation works. I see this type of comment all the time, but there's never any evidence except for historical examples that aren't directly relevant. It's quite tiresome and inflammatory. There's proof that Reddit is now a happier place. The commenter must prove, using evi…

What I don't get is why r/politics is not banned yet. To call it "toxic" would be severe understatement.
Post reply on HN