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Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits worked (2017)

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Re: Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits worked (2017)

#151
post #32

An emergent ethical concern keeps bugging me in these situations. Of course, private companies reserve the right to refuse business and services to whomever they want. In a healthy society this is no problem. But if we slide towards a dystopian future where Big Tech is basically an oligarchy governing important chunks of society without due process and the democratic checks and balances we would expect from a governi…

I'm not so worried about the free speech aspects of that...there's always somewhere to spew whatever opinion you have. I do agree, though, that Google and others wield a lot of power by being able to permaban a whole account/person for an alleged incident on just one of their platforms. Where "banned on YouTube" means, for example, that your Android phone no longer works.

>I'm not so worried about the free speech aspects of that...there's always somewhere to spew whatever opinion you have.

You know, this is a really interesting observation. Oftentimes in these debates about moderation, people argue that you can't do it because these platforms are already de-facto public platforms. Meanwhile, in this thread's conversation, the main argument seems to be that pushing people off mainstream platforms won't work because they'll enjoy the exact same opportunities at another platform.

That doesn't imply a contradiction from any particular person, as long as they only embrace one argument or the other. But both have been used in defense of Not Moderating Trolls, and both can't be right.

Re: Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits worked (2017)

#152

A good opportunity to point out that "toxic" means exactly "people I disagree with" and absolutely nothing more.

That is not true, we disagree here on HN on many topics like software freedom, is Apple a monopoly, is Tesla autopilot good or bad etc but persons that disagree with my view points can disagree without becoming toxic. For me toxic comments are comments that are int the first place illogical, use false facts or speculation as truth, use personal attacks or aggressive language, generalize one or a few data points to th…

The word "toxic" has no meaning anymore, because it's all relative to the person using it.

For example, in the game Overwatch, "toxic" got mostly used as "this person does not play with the characters currently recognized as the most optimal". Just playing the game differently than the pros/current metagame was literally considered toxic by a non-negligible amount of people.

When someone says "ban this person for being toxic", one has no idea what they actually mean. To some people, even respectful trash talk is "toxic". By catering to people calling things "toxic", one encourages witch hunts by people.

Your own post is an example of toxic not having a standard accepted definition: "For me toxic comments are comments that ...".

Re: Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits worked (2017)

#153
post #75
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, because kids are not attracted to things that are forbidden.

I reckon there is actually more excitement to being part of an infamous fringe of a large mainstream community like Reddit, than to be part of an isolated fringe community that the mainstream is unlikely to ever see. Part of the appeal is surely in offending the mainstream users who share the platform.

> ...than to be part of an isolated fringe community that the mainstream is unlikely to ever see...

Like being a computer hacker was (and still to some extent is)? Sorry, no. People like to gather into in-groups and exclusivity makes it more attractive.

Sweeping dirt under the rug doesn't destroy the dirt; you just wind up with a bigger and bigger lump of dirt under the rug.

Re: Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits worked (2017)

#154
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not so worried about the free speech aspects of that...there's always somewhere to spew whatever opinion you have. I do agree, though, that Google and others wield a lot of power by being able to permaban a whole account/person for an alleged incident on just one of their platforms. Where "banned on YouTube" means, for example, that your Android phone no longer works.

>I'm not so worried about the free speech aspects of that...there's always somewhere to spew whatever opinion you have. You know, this is a really interesting observation. Oftentimes in these debates about moderation, people argue that you can't do it because these platforms are already de-facto public platforms. Meanwhile, in this thread's conversation, the main argument seems to be that pushing people off mainstrea…

My reasoning is that it's not really different from the past. Heavy corporate control of communications media isn't new, it predates the internet. Yet people still find ways to get their rants seen and heard, then..and now.

I concede that companies can make it harder. Hard to really stamp it out though.

Re: Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits worked (2017)

#155
post #38

It "worked" only if the definition is "it removed it from Reddit". As the article mentions, these people did not just disappear or change their mind. They just moved to more obscure places, where they can continue and be evem more motivated, because now they have been censored. And you might still consider this to be a satisfiable definition for "it worked". Out of sight, out of mind. Except that, these people are no…

> And you might still consider this to be a satisfiable definition for "it worked". Out of sight, out of mind. I think expecting the behavior to disappear is an unrealistic goal. Marginalizing it certainly makes it less appealing because it's clear it's not widely socially acceptable. > Except that, these people are now relegated to an echo chamber far from public discourse where they will only reinforce their views…

> Marginalizing it certainly makes it less appealing because it's clear it's not widely socially acceptable.

So, how did the 18th Amendment in the United States, i.e. Prohibition, work out? Surely, the broad public support and commitment to marginalizing alcohol, enough to get a constitutional amendment passed (no small feat), has been successful in making the US a booze-free country today? No?

Marginalization only works if it's something people aren't deeply committed to and tribalism, the root of many of these toxic behaviors, is far too deeply ingrained in human nature for marginalization to work.

Re: Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits worked (2017)

#156
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, Reddit isn't responsible for, and couldn't possibly begin be responsible for, hate in the whole world. They banned it on their site, and it cleaned up their corner of the world, and they're happy that the place they have control over has less hate. That's not bullshit. Bullshit is saying "well, we can't possibly get rid of it, so may as well let it stay where ever it shows up."

Bullshit is saying "We stand for free speech" and then later saying "the best way to deal with toxic and hateful viewpoints is to censor and hide them." Belief in free speech as a principle assumes that good and right arguments will win out every day in an open public forum.

So belief in free speech would appear, by that definition, to have been proven wrong.

Re: Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits worked (2017)

#157

A good opportunity to point out that "toxic" means exactly "people I disagree with" and absolutely nothing more.

That is not true, we disagree here on HN on many topics like software freedom, is Apple a monopoly, is Tesla autopilot good or bad etc but persons that disagree with my view points can disagree without becoming toxic. For me toxic comments are comments that are int the first place illogical, use false facts or speculation as truth, use personal attacks or aggressive language, generalize one or a few data points to th…

[deleted]

Re: Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits worked (2017)

#158

A good opportunity to point out that "toxic" means exactly "people I disagree with" and absolutely nothing more.

That is not true, we disagree here on HN on many topics like software freedom, is Apple a monopoly, is Tesla autopilot good or bad etc but persons that disagree with my view points can disagree without becoming toxic. For me toxic comments are comments that are int the first place illogical, use false facts or speculation as truth, use personal attacks or aggressive language, generalize one or a few data points to th…

Fair enough, the implication doesn't go both ways. My point was that all things considered "toxic" are just things that are not being agreed with. Of course, things can also not be agreed with without being considered "toxic".

Re: Study finds Reddit’s ban of its most toxic subreddits worked (2017)

#159
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you would prefer edgy platforms to move from open cleartext forums where they can be argued against and monitored, to private encrypted forums only populated by the choir, as it were? This will not end well.

I think that is a good end. The definition of ending well. Such forums are, by definition, smaller and have less reach. Moreover, it is clear that members of such forums are supporters of the nastiness the forum espouses.

I'm not sure they have less reach. Most people have heard of the chans and stormfront from notoriety. And for one, I seriously doubt an individual comes into white nationalism through mainstream channels like reddit.

What this ultimately accomplishes is that the public gets to be blissfully ignorant about the blemishes, but these people are operating in the same capacity as before without brushing up to challenges as much

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